Gen Z, Digital Wellbeing and Entering the Workplace

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. My guest this week is a 21-year-old mental health and digital wellbeing campaigner. He currently works as campaigns director at Flip Gen, a youth led digital wellbeing organization. Today we're gonna be talking about what it's like for Gen Z entering the workplace. We'll talk about mental health across generations and young people in business. So it's a great pleasure today to talk to Patty Crump. Hi Patty.

Paddy CrumpHi, esta. It's really, really great to be with you. I'm really excited.

Alastair GreenerWell, so much to cover as we've just discovered. Um, and obviously really focusing on you, your generation, how you interact with other generations, and also some of the learnings, um, that you can share with us that we can all learn from. Uh, but I wanna start off by talking a little bit about you, as I do with all of my guests, about, you know, your background. What was life growing like growing up, and do you see yourself as a typical Gen Z?

Paddy CrumpUm, I absolutely don't see myself as a typical Gen Z. Um, my life growing up, I grew up in a little village, um, surrounded by people who weren't Gen Z very much, um, uh, kind of very much older, um, retired people. And so a lot of my, um, uh, bringing, I spent at summer fate and go and, and in pantomimes, in amateur dramatics. So very much I'd kind of describe it as. Uh, a kind of traditional little village where I, I grew up talking to people who are retired and learning from them. And now I wouldn't say I'm, uh, typical at all. Like, I don't really like clubbing. I don't like, I've never been on a theme park. Um, I'd much rather be sat down watching Great Potter throw down with my dad on a Sunday evening. Um, and I'm a massive politics and history nerd, so, um, yeah, I've been told quite a few times. Um, by various different people that I'm not, um, stereotypical, um, gen Z.

Alastair GreenerAnd what do you put that down to? You know? Yes. You, you, you talk about your environment, which makes a big difference. I have this, um, concept called the five circles of generational influence. So what makes us and. Clearly that rural background, which I can completely relate to because that's how I was brought up too. Although there's a few years in between us, it has to be said. But what about your sort of parents' parenting style? You know, you talked about, you know, being with your dad, watching great pottery throw down and things like that. You know, how hands-on were they, we hear a lot about helicopter parenting these days, you know, so, so what was that like?

Paddy CrumpYeah, I think my parents are very much, um, hands off and, and they, they never bothered about me going outside, getting dirty. Um, running around in the woods, climbing trees. Um, if, if I used to go to nursery and the nursery, um, nurses would apologize 'cause my clothes were dirty, they wouldn't mind at all. And I think that had a, had a, um, a, a big impact on me. And, and maybe because, you know, there wasn't many young people in my village that I spent a lot of time with them and, and with my, with my family. And we're a very small family. Um, there's only the four of us and, and I didn't really have any grandparents, so. Um, that was part of it. A lot of my weekends was spent mowing the lawn and, um, fixing a tractor and doing this kind of thing. Um, so, so yeah, I think, and my parents, one of the things I think has really, um, impacted me is. That. I think speaking to other people my age, it is quite different. If I ever got a school report, my parents would always look at the effort grade rather than the attainment grade. Um, and, and that had a big influence on, on my life and, and who I am today. Um, in terms of that, it, it was never about. Um, being the best. It was about trying and, and, and, um, getting out there and, and giving it a go. And, and that kind of was similar to getting outside and, and just giving things a go and playing different sports. Um, so I was always encouraged to do that kind of thing.

Alastair GreenerAnd how was, how different you, you said you were in a small village community, but obviously then you went to a bigger secondary school. Uh, first of all, actually, we should talk about phones and, and, and technology and so on. Were, were you, did you have any restrictions? What age were you when you got your first phone and, and how did you start getting on with social media?

Paddy CrumpYeah, so I, I was a bit of a, I got my phone quite late. I got my first iPhone. On my, um, I think around when I was my 12, 13, 13th birthday. So I, I was still carrying a Nokia brick around at secondary school when everybody else had, um, iPhones, which at the time it wasn't, I wasn't best pleased, but now I look back and I'm quite grateful. Um, and I started to use social media and it did have an impact on me. Um, I remember my, my dad, one of the things he used to do was read to me, and there were times when I was. If I was having arguments with people, I'd be on my dad's iPad under the covers, messaging people, um, and just being constantly on it while my dad was like reading to me. Um, so from an early age it was quite a big, um, factor in my life. And then as I grew up, um, at school, uh, they, they started to be bullying happen on group chats and that kind of thing. Um, social media didn't really help my mental health. Um. So, so yeah, the, the, there was that, uh, the impact, but even though I got my, I got my phone quite late compared to other people, I probably was the last person in my year to do it. It quickly became quite a big problem.

Alastair GreenerAnd that, uh, you know, judging from what you are saying there, that led you to take a greater interest in mental health and hence flip gen, which we will get to in a moment, because that's clearly very much your focus of what you do. Um, just before we get to that and your current work, something that was quite significant when we first spoke was about the fact that you went straight into work after leaving school. There's, you know, sometimes seen as a huge amount of pressure on youngsters to go to university and get further qualifications and things. Tell me a little bit about what was going through your mind, why you took the path you did.

Paddy CrumpYeah, so you mentioned a little bit about my mental health and I really struggled, um, at school. I didn't really fit in at school. Um, I had a very tough time with, with people and, and my mental health. Was really bad during COVID and during my sick form years. So I just wanted to get out of education. So I got out and, and there was a lot of, there was so much pressure to go to university from my school. Um, I remember chat chats with the careers advisors and they, they were really pushing me to go to school and pushing me to not just go to go to university and not just go to university, but. Go away for university and it's, it's something that I really didn't wanna do. I, I struggled really bad with depression and, um, I wasn't in a state where I could, I felt like I could go. So, um, I, my dad, um, never went to university. My dad's dad never went to university. And so I always had that aspect in my head that, um, you know, I didn't need to go to university to get where I wanted to be. Um. And despite all that pressure, so it was the fact that I knew that I didn't need to go to university, but also I didn't feel like I confident to go to university at that point. Um, so I, I decided to, to kind of explore my options and also I didn't know what I wanted to do. Um, when I was, up until COVID, I wanted to be a rugby player and then, um, I realized that wasn't for me, too dangerous. Um, so I was like looking what I wanted to do and so I didn't have a, a really clear idea, so I thought. Um, I'd, I'd work for a bit. I, I'd see what I wanted to, um, do. I, I, I'd maybe go to Univers in the future, but at this point in time or at that point in time, it wasn't right for me because I didn't want just kind of waste three years or something because I felt like I was pushed into it. Um, and, and so, yeah, and I, and I think we mentioned parents before. I always had that support. My, my mom and my dad have always said, um. That it doesn't like bother them at all, whether I go to university or not. And because I've had that example of my dad who, um, didn't go to university and, and has been an inspiration for me. My mom went to university, but I had that, um, that tho those two different roots into work. So I, um, so I never felt in myself that I had that pressure, those external pressure from school, but I decided that it wasn't for me. And, and at the point in my mental health, um. I, I had, I speak to a counselor and, and at that point I, I knew that my mental health would probably be better served, not going to university.

Alastair GreenerAnd that's, that's an incredibly, you know, realistic position to take that some people don't see, you know, sometimes they, the, the idealism takes over. But for you to be grounded and to be really pragmatic in that way, um, is, is, is really impressive. And. The thing that really struck me when we first spoke, you talked about your first day in, in the workplace, and we, we'll come back to mental health in the world. 'cause it's clearly a very, um, key part of your life and, and who you are, hence the, the job that you now do. But just briefly talking about that first day at work, because it really highlighted. How the workplace isn't necessarily brilliant at welcoming new people into the environment. So tell us a bit about those first days.

Paddy CrumpYeah, I remember. I remember them very clearly. I remember the first day I was there in my. All my smart, my, my chinos and my quarter zip and slightly too big for me, like my first day at school and, and actually looking around and nobody else, um, was really in smart clothes. But I remember sitting down and I'd gone from school a few months earlier where. The, the people sat next to me, their mums were making their lunches, and they didn't really have any independence to sit in opposite somebody who had a son and was barely making ends meet and sitting next to, um, a grandmother. And it, it just so felt so foreign to me. I remember asking on the first day whether I could go to the toilet and, and, and it was really unnatural just to be able to get up and, um. Get up and, and go without even asking. And then, um, the, the, just the etiquette of the office. What time did you come in? How long do you have to leave it after five o'clock to, to leave. So you don't look like you're just trying to get out the door. Um, drinks atica. I, I found it really difficult. I didn't. Make hot drinks for the first month because I didn't, I needed to look and make sure I knew how, what the, what the etiquette was about making each other drinks and, and coffee and tea because. I, I know that some places it's a, it's a normal thing or, well, this is what I thought. Some places it's not a normal thing. Some people just make it for their team. And, and luckily after a month, I, I was brave enough to start making my own coffee and luckily none of my team drank coffee and tea. So I was really lucky in that respect. But it was just, yeah, it took me a month to do that just because I was, I was so nervous to get it wrong. When you are 18, like fresh out of school, um, I, I felt like I didn't have that. I just felt like I was just a fish out of water and, and, and trying to fit in to this, um, foreign world.

Alastair GreenerSo, so let's just backtrack a tiny bit because it seems extraordinary to that you went through that and, you know, most of us thinking about it think, gosh, I, I would hate for someone to join my organization and that to be happening. So, first of all, what we are not gonna say who it was, but what type of organization was it? What was the no onboarding process or anything where things were discussed with you and you were able to be given a clear path of what was expected?

Paddy CrumpI think, um, it, so I was working in accounts in a, um, childcare organization, so it's massive multimillion pound, um, business. And, and I was very lucky because my boss, um, at the time was 25. So he had more of that experience and, and there was onboarding of, this is where the toilets are, this is where, um, the fire exits. But I think the, the difficulty is it's all those. Um, intangible things like the drink etiquette that you can't, that you probably struggle to write down on a piece of paper. Um, it's just the norms of a workplace that they probably didn't think about somebody moving in for the first time. Um, there was me and, and an apprentice, um, and, and then everybody else was, was much older and had been working for four or five years, so didn't have that and I don't think they quite realized that. This would, how different it was. You quickly forget, and, and at the organization, a lot of people had been there for a long time. So my boss had joined when he was 18. Um, but there wasn't that kind of, yeah, the intangible things like the, the itca and, um, things that you don't really want to, to ask. I remember. At, at five o'clock, I was just waiting around and, and somebody's like, on the first day, because you, you do at school, you are, you're kind of dismissed. And, and somebody said you can go, you know? Um, and, and so it's, it was, yeah, I, I guess it, it was kind of, they did, they probably didn't realize that I, I would be nervous and, and overthink all these things. Um, but, but that, that was the case and, and. I think it is weird because you, you're expected to be, um, expected to know what you're doing, but also I felt at times that I was infantalized and I was there a fully, um, full-time and often I was treated like a, an account, an apprentice or um, like somebody younger or like work experience. Um, so it was like that. It was quite frustrating because I wanted to be treated like. An adult, a full-time worker, but I didn't quite feel like that. But when I was treated, um, as, you know, somebody who was younger, a kid, um, then it was quite frustrating. Yeah.

Alastair GreenerWell, yeah. I really appreciate you being so candid about that because it's really important for people to put themselves into the shoes of someone like yourself joining the workplace for the first time, and to actually understand what's going through your mind and you know, some of the things that are just, that's the accepted way in the workplace. Well, if you've never been in the workplace, you wouldn't know that, and which is why I advocate. For bridging the generation gap, the recruitment and onboarding are probably two of the most important aspects of bridging that gap and having a member of the team join who actually understands what's expected and and creates that very positive work-based relationship. Let's move on now to flip gen. And the work that you do there, it, it, it sounds very much like from our previous conversation and from today and everything else, that this is like your natural home to be doing what you are doing. So tell me a little bit more about flip gen, what it does, who the company is, and what your role is.

Paddy CrumpYeah, it, it is a natural home. I absolutely love it. Uh, um, so we're a youth-led digital wellbeing organization. Um, so yeah, completely youth led. There's, there's four directors now, two, um, young people, 19-year-old me and, and two people in their forties who have kids. Um, but we campaign for safety by design, so a digital world that's safe for young people to use and really, um, looks out for their wellbeing. And also we focus on education. So, um. Pretty much we say we have a toolkit where, um, on the website and we, we, we are moving it into and transitioning it into, uh, workshops of schools. But basically with young people, we've developed a toolkit of, um, what we, we, what we wish we knew when we got our phone. Um, so it's got everything, uh, it's got about 50 pages about fishing. Um, algorithms, all these kind of things. Um, so my job, uh, really, um, it, it, we are very much startups, so there's two of us working full time. So a bit of everything, but my, I love kind of coming back to that, um, coming back to that generational thing, and do I feel like, um, gen Z, um, no, because I love politics and, and I watch. Political sittings and I read hand side and, and read books. But I love the, the way that I can hopefully use my experience and, and be involved with, um, politics about being party political and without all that, that pressure. So we are campaigning for, for the changes we wanna see and. It's so exciting. Um, earlier this week I was at an event in parliament. Walking through a central lobby and seeing all the journalists I watch on TV was just the most exciting thing for me. I was just, um, so giddy. Um, but it, it's a natural fit as well because I, that's why I've, I've mentioned it, but I have OCD and I've had, I've, I've really struggled. Um, and often I, I, I used to look back at that part of my life. Um. And say like, people always talk about your teenage years and your school years being the best parts of your life. And, and I used to look back and think, I've just wasted all of this because I've been, I, I've been in in bed, I've been struggling to leave the house. Um, I've put my parents through a lot and, and uh, all these kind of things. So for me, it allows me to look back at that part of my life with real pride and, and, um, happiness. I went through it because I know that I wouldn't. Would be working, um, on what I love now if I didn't have it. And it allows me to use that to try and help other people not go through, uh, what I went through.

Alastair GreenerYou know what you, you're talking about the, the whole digital thing and you know, and you, you talked about how it's impacted you and your, your mental health and a massive topic of conversation at the moment is, um, youngsters using mobile phones and social media interaction and so on. And in fact my guest last week, uh, we were talking about the social media ban in Australia. Where does flip gen sit with that?

Paddy CrumpUm, it's, it's a really difficult one because it, it is become so divisive in the campaigning space. Um, and we've taken the approach of against the blanket ban. Um, but also against the status quo as it is now. We, you know, it's very clear that the digital world is harming young people. Um, and, and something's gotta be done about it. But at the same time, we don't believe a, a blanket ban will be the solution. There's unintended consequences. It push young people into other spaces are less regulated. Um, the, the actual definition of social media, uh, isn't, um. It isn't act hasn't actually been decided. And I think there's a lot of research that needs doing on social media and the, and the harms and the way those harms can be mitigated. And also I think, um, when you talk about generations and a, a lot of the people advocating, um, have gr have not grown up in a advocate for a bad, have not grown up in a time of social media. Um, and, and social media has fundamentally changed, um, young people's lives, but also. A reliance on social media has come about because of a lack of fur spaces, a lack of safe. You can't really go out and knock on some your friend's door and play football in the cul-de-sac anymore because, um, it, it's just not the culture. And, and there's safety concerns and a lack of fur space and a lack of community spaces, um, means that a lot of the connection people have is now on social media. Um. And therefore if we removed social media for young people, I think young people will still be using phones. So just use them differently. I think that's what some of the uh, um. Research from Australia, uh, is starting to, um, suggest, and also I, I'm concerned that if, that, it looks like the tide might be going that way. What are we putting in place for young people, um, away from their screens outside? Um, what can young people be doing instead of going on social media? And I don't see that we are replacing it with anything. Um, so yeah, we are advocating for. Um, safety by design education for young people. Some age limits. So AI companion bots. Um, I don't think there's any reason why an under 16 should be using them. Um, algorithmic features, infinite scroll need to be controlled, but actually. We we're kind of in that middle ground of, against a status quo, but also against a, an outright ban. And, and away from my flip gen work, um, my mental health work, I, I really want to see those third spaces back and, and, you know, physical, um, and, and places where young people can go and socialize safely, um, as well. If this bank comes in place.

Alastair GreenerIt is a challenge, isn't it? Because if we have moved on culturally, how do we recreate something that was very natural to generations before yours? And you know, I'm sure you're familiar with the work of Jonathan het, who talks a lot about the anxious generation. You know, the, what is called often the over parenting in the real world and under parenting in the digital world and this fear of, well, we don't go on the street because it's dangerous, is, is actually something that's in our minds rather than, you know, the statistics don't bear that out, but as you said, it's cultural. We've got outta the habit. Of doing that. So it's great to hear your programs are looking at that. Um, and, and looking at ways that to engage young people. What about parents? Where, where do they fit into your work in terms of how they can help their children,

Paddy CrumpIt's, um, parents are absolutely fundamental, um, to the work. I think a lot of the issue is that we've, when you grow up and traditionally you look for your parents for guidance, your parent. Um, when you are really young, your parents seem to know all the answers and, and know what's going on. And they've lived through life. They're kind of the beacon of knowledge. Um, but now with the way social media works, um, young people are, are kind of in a position where they know more about social media and the online world and their digital world than their parents do. Um. I know my parent, my, my parents often ask me for advice on, on social media and on the online world. And, and that's okay. Now I'm 21. But, um, a lot of parents now are, are, um, a lot of parents now are, uh, are asking, or, or, or, or know less about the digital world when their kids are 7, 8, 9. Um, and, and so I think it's really important that parents also have the. A chance to be educated on the online world. I think that one of the things that we are looking to do as well is, is get young people. We, the, the workshops we're developing is peer to peer. So older children teaching younger children about the digital world, but also children and, and young people teaching, um, parents and adults about the digital world, I think is really important because how, um, can we expect parents to, um. To really understand and, and to ask the right questions about what their children are doing online if they've never been given the education to do so. Um, and I think it, it, it's really important to put a reasonable expectation on parents. There's a big move to smartphone free, um, or, or take smartphones away from children. Um, I think, uh, some people are quite critical of, of parents giving children iPads, but. It's incredibly difficult now, if you are working full-time jobs, you are, um, trying to make ends meet. And iPads are, um, marketed for children and, and a solution. And maybe it's the only thing that, um, parents can do to keep their children on, uh, or keep their children busy and unoccupied and not getting bored. So I think we, I, I, I think it's too blunt to say. That parents need to parent better, or that's we need to take, um, we need to take iPads away from children. Um, and, and kind of put that blame on parents. I, it's a, it is a really difficult balancing act, but the first step is really making sure that parents have the chance to know what's going on on online so they can start these conversations with their children, um, and understand the answers that come back.

Alastair GreenerYou sound like you have a very pragmatic approach, uh, to dealing with something that's really, frankly, quite a complex situation. And of course it's fast moving. So keeping up with everything. And we haven't even touched on AI and the impact that's going to have on the next generation, generation, alpha. Um, I wanted to sort of do our, finish our, our, our chat today, but spend a little bit of time on. The way that you communicate with different generations, because clearly you are now in business as the campaigns director at Flip Gen. You know, you are dealing with people of all different ages. You know, you are looking after and being concerned about youngsters who are still at school, younger Gen Zs and uh, gen Alphas. But you are also dealing with lots of older people. You talked earlier on about how when you went into the workplace, you were treated somewhat patronizingly by some people. So what's your strategy to communicate effectively across generations?

Paddy CrumpIt's, it is difficult. Um, and, and it's something that I'm trying to get my head around, especially when you go to like networking events and, um. And you wanna see, you wanna see him, um, really serious and, and you want older generations to respect you and take you seriously. So I find, um, I, I, I always try and overdress and wear smart clothes and, um, because I think that that is one way to be taken seriously. But also I've, I've learned recently to, to use, to use my, um. Youth as an adv to my advantage because I go to events and I'm usually one of the youngest there by about 20 years. And actually I find it networking I used to hate, but I'm starting to, to, to like it a little bit more because I feel like I've got that conversation starter and already there's some kind of interest, um, from their, from the other people's perspective to me, because I'm young and because I'm in the position so. Um, it is a difficult, it is a difficult one because I think that in, in my head, I already have to be, um, have to know my stuff more, be more impressive, um, have better points because I'm younger and, and, and I want to have that credibility. Um, and I think, um. There's a difficulty because, um, these organiza organizations want young people for youth engagement, but the young people, they want, they want to act very mature and act like they've been working for 20 years. So it's really difficult to balance, um, that, but I think for me it's about, um, yes, being my authentic self. Also at some you have to compromise and you have to understand what other people are looking for, um, and really play on that. But also, um, sometimes it's about having, having my cake and eating it, um, in the fact that using it to my advantage when I want to use it to my advantage, but also, um, but also knowing sometimes I have to, um. Acting a certain way, dressed in a certain way to to gain that credibility.

Alastair GreenerYeah, you know what? And, and it's a game that, um, all of us have played. I, I remember when I was in a management role and I was in my thirties, which was considered quite young at that time, and I remember doing exactly the same thing as you. I was dressing up. I wanted to be taken more seriously. So I, I'm not sure that's something that's necessarily changed. It's interesting how that you do it and that that's actually, you know, goes across all, all generations. So, um, I always like to ask this question, so, um, in, in a, in a sentence, what's the best thing about being Gen Z and what's the biggest challenge about being Gen Z in, in, from your perspective in what you do?

Paddy CrumpI think the best thing about being Gen Z is that there's so much going on. It's so exciting that, um. AI and as you said, ai, um, you know, I'm living in a time when the next 50 years I'm gonna see the next 50 years play out and I think, I dunno what's gonna happen in the next five, 10 years. So it's cool to know that in the next 50 years it could be jobs that I have no idea. Um, there, there's, there's different things, um, that whatever could happen. Um. Will happen. And, and hopefully I get to be part of that and try and shape, um, what's going on. And, um, I think every generation thinks it, but this just seemed like a time of enormous change and, um, whether the world will ever be the same again after ai, um, is really exciting. Terrifying but exciting. I'd say the biggest challenge, um, is kind of. Fighting that. Um, a lot of the stereotypes around young people, um, around being anxious generations, snowflakes, um, and like sensitive, especially when you are, obviously I am sensitive, I am all these things. But I would say a challenge is, is gain that credibility when, when things are being, when. Everything is get everything being talked about, social media, bans, regulation is all part, is all about under sixteens and all about my generation. So it's a real challenge to try and get our voice heard and try and be part of those conversations and it's really frustrating, um, when we are not part of those conversations. So I would say the challenge is getting part of those conversations and dealing with it when we're not.

Alastair GreenerYeah, that makes perfect sense. And uh, I, I, you know, you, you often feel that, you know, that, that strange feeling of, you know, sometimes being like, wow, this is fantastic. And then recognizing the challenges and, um, dealing with other people and, and, and finally, have you got some top tips of how you reckon we could bridge generation, the generation gap? Better, you know, to deal with some of those challenges that you outlined, the assumptions, the stereotypes, you know what, what are some of the things that you reckon we could all do to improve the way that we communicate across generations?

Paddy CrumpI think number one, just talk. Um, it, it sounds simple, but actually having a conversation about, um, with people from different generations is so important. I love it. And, and there's actually so much more in common and, and I think that. Often it comes down to people, not ego, but people think, um. Older people think young people have have it easy and, and older and younger. People think that, what do older people know? They've not, they've not grown up in this time. But actually a lot of the things that we're going through now have existed in different forms and we can learn so much from different generations. Um, and, and kind of on that point, I say it's not a zero sum game just because. I think growing up now is really difficult. It doesn't mean growing up 20 years ago wasn't difficult and just because somebody who maybe grew up in the 1970s when there were strikes and three day weeks, even though that was quite difficult, it doesn't mean that growing up now is really easy. And I think that the comparison can be really dangerous and, and actually take away all the learnings, um, that we can, we can learn from each other. Um, you know, we are, we are one. Um, we want society and a rising tide lift to all the boats. And, and if we can work together and, and really learn from each other, um, I think it's, it's really beneficial and it's a state of mind if you're open to learning from other generations and open to having those conversations. Um, then I think there's so much good that can come out of it, but it's all about being open and, and not being precious about your generation. Um, and, and thinking you've got all the answers.

Alastair GreenerWow. Very wise words, Patti. Um, that was perfect. And, and I think you're absolutely right. And funny enough, a lot of those parallels go, um, in what I talk about when I'm doing keynote speeches or in my book or so on. And actually this, the, the, the topic that you mentioned there, the concept of blame, you know, it's, it's All Right for You, I think is a great title for my next book. Uh,

Paddy CrumpYeah, I, I look forward to it.

Alastair GreenerI really appreciate your time today, Patty. It's been great chatting and, um, to have a real insight into your world and I wish you, you and all of your team there at Flip Gen, uh, wish you every success and, uh, continue doing the great work.

Paddy CrumpThank you, Alice. It's been a, it is been a real pleasure. I think we could have spoken for a lot longer.

Alastair GreenerYeah, you're absolutely right. We could have done thanks again, Patty, and thank you for listening. We'll be back again in two weeks time for another episode. Uh, but

Paddy CrumpYeah.

Alastair Greenerfor now. ​