Gen X Raising Gen Z: Anxiety, Schools and Smartphones

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and share practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. Now my guest this week is a Gen Xer who has spent her entire career working intergenerationally with teenagers. First as an English teacher in a state secondary schools, but then as in a pupil referral unit, she now works with Joe Roundtree, and you might remember Joe, who I spoke to a couple of weeks ago on episode 32 of this podcast. So with their project anxiety uncovered, they run workshops and have a podcast. Aimed at helping young people and the adults around them to better understand and manage anxiety. In this episode, we're going to be talking about working in schools in 2026. What adults can learn from the young and a really hot topic banning social media for youngsters with the latest take direct from Australia. Yes. Joining us live from Melbourne, Australia. Please welcome Emma Clark. Emma lovely to chat to you.

Emma ClarkLovely to chat to you. I hear the weather's terrible over there at the moment. It's glorious here. I'm sorry to boast.

Alastair GreenerYeah, it's not an attractive quality to gloat like that.

Emma ClarkI can't hold it in.

Alastair GreenerI'm, I'm delighted that you're here because there's so much to cover, especially, you know, everyone's talking about the social media band, which is great 'cause it means it's in the conversation, but there's some really diverse views on that, and we'll come to that in a while and we'll talk about your work in schools and we'll talk about what you are seeing in schools today. As a Gen Xer with Gen Z parents as well, with Gen Z parents, gen Z, uh, kids. Um, it's an early in the morning here, late in the evening in Australia. Um, so we're gonna talk about that as well. So lots to cover in half an hour, but I know you've got quite a, quite an emotive story yourself, and I'm always talking about how we are framed as a generation by our upbringing. So could you start off by just telling us a little bit about that upbringing?

Emma ClarkSure. Um. So my, I'm in Australia at the moment visiting family and also sort of retracing my roots in a way. I'm in a suburb called Williamstown at the moment, a suburb of Melbourne. Um, and it's where I was born. It's where my grandparents used to live, where my father was born and he grew up. So I'm here on a little bit of a nostalgia drip, kind of chasing my roots 'cause I, I, I am Australian. I was born here. Um, I'm an Australian citizen and my story is one. It's quite unusual. Uh, it is quite an unusual story, um, in terms of the kind of things that, that framed me and made me who I am today. So I lived a, a very, very carefree life in Australia until the age of seven. Uh, by the age of seven I had two siblings, aged four and one, and at age seven my parents had a, a catastrophic divorce. Anecdotally, I dunno, the worst one. Uh, they still don't speak today. Um, and part when my mother left my father, she left him very dramatically in that she put us on a plane and took us to the UK and didn't tell anyone she had a one way ticket. Uh, me, I. So it was a traumatic event for me because I left Australia and the life I knew very Dr very quickly, very suddenly and dramatically. And, uh, I had a good relationship with my father. I was settled in school, I was happy in Australia and that it all vanished really quick and it became, we moved to Wales. Uh, by that time my mother's family were all in Wales and it was the beginning of a really, some tough few years. Um. Those first couple of years we had next to no money. Uh, we didn't have anywhere to live for a while. We were moving from sort of spare bedroom in someone's house to spare bedroom in someone else's house. We were out of school. Eventually, we found a small house in a very deprived area of Cardiff and the local school there was one of the worst in Wales. So the solution was to send us to Welsh speaking school. Uh, because, you know, that way you could get into a decent school trouble was I had to learn Welsh on top of everything else. Um, so I mean, it was those years that were particularly hard for me. Um, and, and in the end quite formative, um, and had a lasting impact on me, negative to begin with. But in the end, you know, um, have turned out incredibly positively. To the work led to my whole career, but led definitely to the work I do today. So, um, what, when you have a, a sort of upbringing like that, that's, um, a bit catastrophic, a bit, you know, traumatizing it, it will, it does lead to, to mental health problems down the line. And these are, you know, I did suffer from anxiety, um, into my, into my twenties and and thirties. Um, but at the beginning it was quite high functioning anxiety, which really means that you, you just really, you become a bit of a workaholic. So when I was young, school kind of saved me. I was quite academic, particularly in the arts and humanities, and school felt really safe compared to home. That was, you know, quite chaotic. And, you know, we, we were on free school meals. We had hardly any money. I shared a bedroom with two of my sisters, you know, we didn't have. You know, if we were Victorian, we would've been chimney sweeps, you know, that kind of thing

Alastair GreenerIt's really interesting. You talk about, you know, the, you know, how your anxiety manifested itself, that you put all your energy into your schoolwork, where you hear other stories, where people, you know, rebel completely and actually do the opposite of

Emma ClarkYeah.

Alastair GreenerWhat was it you think that drove you to be, you know, to focus on your academia? I, I mean, I. Do love the fact that you, you recognized how school was a safe haven for you and you know, you and I having worked in schools, we've seen that a lot, haven't we? Where for lots of people who come from very challenging backgrounds and family life, actually school is the one stable element that they have in their lives.

Emma ClarkI, I think what helped was that I was quite academically able. And I, maybe because I'd had, and I, and I was when I was in Australia too, and I got a lot of validation from doing well at school and it propelled me forward. There was a niggling part of me as well that thought, this is my escape from poverty. If I do well at school, I can get out of this situation. And it was knowing as well that there was no, no financial safety net that I, if I, you know, if I wanted to get out of, of being extremely working class, then I had to. Rely on myself to do it. And I realized quite early on that that school was the root. So I think looking back through the rear view mirror. It, it, I, I, I worked and worked and worked, not just at school. I had part-time jobs as well on the side from the age of 14 or 15, I was sort of working hard to earn, earn money on the side as well. And then my first job out of university was in Japan, and they love a workaholic in Japan. So I fit right in, working six to eight weeks and then clubbing all night at the weekends and whatever. Just weathering it in Japan as well,

Alastair GreenerDid you recognize, did you recognize that, that age, that this was a manifestation of, of struggling with mental health? Or did you just see it as this is just who I am, this is what I do, and I'm just keen to make the most of myself?

Emma Clarkwell, like a lot of Gen Xers, boomers too, I think, uh, the conversation around mental health just didn't exist. There wasn't a pastoral system in, in schools that recognized it in the nineties, and it wasn't a conversation that you had with people older than you, I think. What, what people did was just push it down. And so I think I just pushed it down. Um, it's only in the rear view mirror that I can recognize that it was actually high functioning anxiety and it's only because it spilled later on. It became real anxiety, panic attacks, you know, breakdown whatever in my thirties, um, that I was able to seek therapy and look back over my life and realize where the threads all matched. So,

Alastair Greenerwow. So you, are you saying, I just wanna pick up on that you were, you, you're basically saying that it really manifests itself in, in, uh, a massively negative way to the point that you need to seek help in not until your thirties. Wow.

Emma Clarkby which time I'd, I, you know, on the outside it looked like I had a very normal life. You know, I was a teacher i'd, I was married, I had a, a nice house, a cat. I looked, everything looked really normal. Um, but what you know. But I didn't really talk about the struggles I'd had as a child, not to many people at all. I didn't really own it as part of my story. And it st and the, the, the rumbles started to develop, uh, around the time I, I, I had my first dau, my first child. Um, then, then the Ripple started to come, come up as they will, you know, as they will eventually, I think, you know, we can't run away from this stuff forever. Um, and so what.

Alastair Greenerand so

Emma ClarkWhat happened that way is, so I, I ended up going into therapy, you know, um, learned hell of a lot, uh, read everything I could, did, lived a very healthy lifestyle. Looked after my anxiety so well, so much so that it became an area that I really wanted to work in. So around seven or eight years ago, I left the teaching profession and moved into working with, um, people, referral units, where I was working one-to-one with. Kids who were out of education for mental health reasons. I was going into their homes as their English tutor. But also I received a lot of training with the Pru, also looking at, you know, school avoidance and, uh, the impact, I could see the impact it was having on whole families. The, you know, the financial implications it was having when people had to give up work so that because their kids were at home and not in school. Um. And so I, I, I started working with that area and sort of did what I could to help around the same time I, I worked in the charity. I started freelancing in the charity where I met you, where we go into schools and help people with their, their confidence, uh, around public speaking. But the charity we work for is quite, um, it's quite open to you making the workshop your own, isn't it? And some, a way in which my workshops developed probably because of my background and my. Awareness and understanding of anxiety by this point is that I could kind of see a fraction of the class that the workshop kind of maybe wasn't reaching. So a lot of the, you know, when we were running these workshops to help with public speaking or interview skills and so on, a lot of our mantra is, you know, you can pretend to be confident. Here's what to do with your body language. Here's what to do with your voice. And this is how you pretend, but there was a bunch of students up to about a third of a class I'd find, and I just kind of knew this wasn't gonna wash. There were too many internal barriers. I sort of knew because I'd had anxiety myself, I knew that the thoughts, the feelings that were going on for these kids. And so I started to develop an element of the workshops where I was giving them anxiety management techniques, just small snippets here and there. Sort of being open about my own struggle with anxiety, which kids rarely see from an adult in a school setting. You know, teachers don't have that capacity really to be able to talk about their mental health. It's too risky, um, in terms of their career or, you know, the fact that they're, you know, they're inner school and getting to the wrong ears or to the wrong parents or whatever else, you know. But when we go into a school to run a workshop, we are there for one day. I can be open. About my own struggles and, and go again. And I was founding those parts of the workshop were really effective. Uh, and in the feedback the kids were saying that that was the part, you know, the parts that helped them the most and that kind of thing. And unbeknownst to me in a way I could never have predicted this ended up being the work I've ended up doing now with Joe Roundtree because. He was actually doing the same kind of thing in his workshops. So he, as you know, he was a guest on your podcast a couple of weeks ago. Um, and he, like me, has had some difficult times with anxiety himself. You know, some.

Alastair GreenerAnd what I think a lot of people will find fascinating is, you know, gen X for that generation, who by the way, um, today are what, 61, 62, um, all the way down to, um, in, in, in their, um, late forties, in their late forties. Yes, exactly, exactly. But the point being is they were the latchkey generation, very self-sufficient, very self-reliant. And of course, what's now unraveling is that actually some of this trauma, some of these things that will have affected them just before we get onto the younger generations today. And specifically about what you are finding in Australia with these mobile phone bands, because, um, that is, is a whole new debate. We need far more than half an hour. But very quickly, where do you stand on this whole thing of analysis leads to paralysis. That some people say that sometimes actually. Do we unpack all of this? You know, some Gen Xs will have dealt with, it, will, will be resilient to what they went through. Others, clearly like yourself, needed to unpack it, needed to be able to deal with it. Where do you, where do you lie on that, that sort of spectrum, if you like, of how much you go back to your childhood and what happened in your childhood as someone who is seen as a resilient Gen X today?

Emma ClarkWell, I'm, I'm a huge advocate of therapy. I think, you know, my story kind of makes that kind of obvious. I don't think I'd be where I am today if I hadn't. Gone back and analyzed what needed to be analyzed or uprooted, what needed to be uprooted. But I was in a position where I had no choice. I think my, my anxiety and my mental health had become so, um, so much so that I wasn't enjoying my life anymore. I was having to take time off work. I was scared of getting anxious again. I was scared of, of, of, you know, my mental health deteriorating and so I had to go and do it. You know, I'm in a, a really good place now, you know, I've done so much work on myself. Um, but if I, I don't know if I hadn't had to do it, I dunno if I would have, I can't, I can't say things couldn't happen any differently because they didn't, you know, so.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and, and people can always, can only really frame something from their own perspective, you know, in terms of what was right for them. And clearly it was absolutely vital that you did it for your own survival apart from anything else. And you know, when. When you're working with youngsters today, where as you quite rightly say, there is a conversation now. You know, things don't tend to get swept under the carpet like they did when you were growing up. Again, you know that level of unpacking any. You know, if it's mental health, clearly it needs to be addressed. But then of course you have this whole thing of, well, teenagers are teenagers. As they're going through life stages, they're going through what teenagers go through, and there will be older people who say, well, that's what it is for the majority of these youngsters. It's not actually mental health, severe mental health issues that need to be dealt with. You know, how, how do you address those kind of comments that might come from your fellow Gen Xers?

Emma ClarkI, I, I don't think mental health needs to be severe in order to have to deal with it. You know? I think maybe had I dealt with mine sooner, it wouldn't have become so dramatically bad, you know? So I think one of the things we can really learn about, learn from Gen X. I think it's a wonderful thing, how open they are about their own mental health and how they, how tolerant they are of others. There's less and less stigma these days and I've, you know, by working with young people, I've, I've learned a lot. I've, I've felt less stigma because when I open up about my mental health, there's just these nods of understanding, whereas maybe I've been less, less likely to do it around Gen Xs in the past because there's a recoil from it. You know, and so maybe because I've been immersed in working with young people so long and, um, and, and have developed this aspect of my work first with, you know, the workshops, you know, with talk, the talk where we used to work together. But, and now especially with the work I'm doing with Joe, with anxiety uncovered, we're talking about mental health all the time. Um, and I'm, I'm really encouraged by how willing and open young people are, um, to talk about it. And it's almost like I almost think if I'd have had workshops. When I was a teenager, like the workshops Joe and I are delivering now, maybe just, maybe things wouldn't have escalated for me later on. I don't know for sure.

Alastair GreenerAnd where do you. Where do you stand on the, you know, the, the debate of we are more aware of mental health and there's more, there appears to be more mental health concerns for young people today than there ever has been. Where do you lie in terms of yes, there is more mental health, um, needing to be addressed versus actually it's just we know about it more today than we did. How much more genuinely challenging mental health scenarios are arising today because of the era we live in versus actually, it was always there, but it just wasn't talked about.

Emma ClarkI think it's a lot worse now than it used to be. Like I remember one workshop in particular I did in Wales. And part of, you know, part of a workshop I do is I, I sort of talk about what, what anxiety feels like and I explain how it feels for me physically and the kind of thoughts I have if I'm in an anxious state. This was a year seven group and a third of that class started talking about how they have panic attacks now. Like to me that's a ridiculous, I mean, this is just one class. It's not a big survey, but it just seems. I don't think a third of my class growing up had had panic attacks. You know, it seems extreme. I mean, the stats are there. A recent survey said, you know, uh, that Joe and I were looking at, um, stated that like 50% of young people over the last year have missed school for anxiety reasons either to do with exam and grade stress or speaking in class friendships and fitting in or appearance. But it's 50% of kids are missing school. Because of anxiety or they cite that as the

Alastair GreenerWow. And that's, that segues really neatly into what was originally gonna be our main topic, but actually this mental health discussion has been a. You know, I think phenomenally useful for people to understand and to contextualize generationally as well. But you know, you talk about year seven, so we're talking about youngsters who've just gone to secondary school, so they're 11, 12 years old. How much of that do you think is down to mobile phone usage and devices?

Emma ClarkI think there's a, it's, it's a, it's a part, it's a part of the picture. Of course. You know, I think. Are all very aware now of the beast that has emerged through social media that, you know, I, I know, you know, from my own kids, when my own kids seven years ago asked for a mobile phone. There wasn't the fear around social media that there is now. It was simply a way to keep track of where they were and maybe they could, you know, have a bit of a laugh with friends. But, you know, over the last six, seven years, the algorithms have become so aggressive. Things like TikTok Snapchat have emerged that weren't there before, and suddenly the beast is, you know, uncontrollable. Um, and, and, and absolutely. It's, it's a factor for sure. COVID is another factor. I know, you know, a fair number of parents who really struggle to get this kids back to school after COVID. Uh, some have never gone back. You know, um, a kind of lost generation of kids who, who, and, and school attendance is right down as well. Post COVID, uh, too, you know, I, I forget the numbers, but there's over a hundred thousand kids in the UK who aren't attending school now post COVID. So.

Alastair GreenerNow you are in Australia at the moment, and they, their lockdown was because I talk in my book about the COVID effect for each generation and where you were in your life stage and which generation you were that. Had a direct impact on how you viewed COVID and how it affected your life. And certainly for youngsters. There's no question there was a, a, a massive issue, especially during those as adolescent years. Australia locked down more severely than the uk. I mean, the UK was pretty strict, but Australia was even more so. Have you noticed any difference? Because of that in Australia, with the short time that you've been there, but with the youngsters you're talking to, the families you're talking to, is, is there any distinction you can make between the two?

Emma ClarkI wouldn't be able to say I've only been here a couple of weeks and that I haven't been having those conversations sort of in preparation for this, uh, this meeting with this podcast with you. I've been talking a lot about the social media band with parents, so I can give you some insights on that. But in terms of

Alastair Greeneryeah, let's, well, let's get onto that.

Emma Clarkcouldn't.

Alastair GreenerSo let's get onto the social media ban. You know, it's, it's massive news here in the uk. There are, you know, people from all sides of the political divide who are, you know, focusing on it, which is great. But we have everything from, it's all down to governance that the, um. The authorities need to look at the way social media platforms are being managed and used and, and the legal ramifications all the way through to what Australia have done, which is just to ban them outright for, I believe it's under 16. Is that

Emma ClarkUnder sixteens. Yeah, for under 16.

Alastair Greenerwhat, so tell us what you've discovered. First of all, what's happened, our youngsters getting around the, the ban. Jonathan Het on a recent interview. If anybody, um, is a follower like me of Jonathan het does amazing work. Um, following his book that I particularly read, which was interesting, was the Anxious Generation. One of many books that he, that he's written, but he was saying that youngsters initially started getting around the band and now less so. Um, so yeah. GI give us a picture of what you are seeing. How's it working and what's everyone's views on it?

Emma ClarkWow.

Alastair GreenerWow.

Emma ClarkFrom the people I've talk spoken to, I've spoken to a number of people about it since I've been here. It almost seems like a, a kind of non-issue in that people sort of feel like things haven't really changed. Now it's probably best if I explain. Through telling you about my cousin. So my cousin Amy, is the same age as me. She has a daughter who's 15 called Luella and a son who is 10 called Will. And I think her, her story kind of gives a, a picture that reflects other stories I've heard. So her daughter is 15 and, and should have, you know, should have, should be banned from mobile phone use at the moment. However she like. Most of her friends have circumnavigated it, and it's pretty easy to circumnavigate. So her, her social media accounts went dead the night of the ban, but she was able, all she, all she had to do was change her phone number, get a different phone, and, and she was offered again, lots of her friends weren't affected by the ban because when they first got mobile phones, maybe back when they were 10 or 11. And, uh, the age to go on things like Snapchat or Instagram or whatever was 13, they maybe lied about their age back then, so, so the, the apps just think they're older than they are. Um, the consensus among parents is that for that generation, for kids that age, it's just too late. You know, the, the, the damage has been done, it's part of their lives. And because the, the ban is so easy to circumnavigate, it's pointless to try and enforce it as a parent. The social media companies, Snapchat, for example, are openly, uh, unsupportive of the ban. They released a statement. I was just gonna, just trying to find it now. I really, I found this statement from Snapchat, here it is, Snapchat have said, cutting kids off from their friends and family doesn't make them safer or happier. So, you know, they're not making it that hard for kids to just get a new account and, and, and go again. But the parents I speak to think, well, you know, um. And also they don't want their kids left out. They don't want their kid to be the only kid who doesn't have social media in their year. You know? So it's a really

Alastair Greenerand peer pressure's always been an issue, hasn't it? That's really where it all comes from, isn't it? If your mates are on it, you know? Yeah.

Emma Clarkyeah. And as a parent, you know, you would worry more about your kid being left out socially, you know, that would be your maybe prime concern. You know? However, she, like many other parents I've spoken to. Says the, the, the way the kids that will be impacted positively are the, are like kids, like her son Will, who is 10. So on the TV at the moment are lots of adverts, you know, kind of aims at kids, you know, social media is now banned. This is to keep you safe. So it is very easy for parents of primary school children to go, no, of course you can't have social media. It's against the law. So it's much, much easier. For their, and, and because, you know, most parents will adhere, you know, most parents don't want their kids on social media. They, they don't, but you know, the generation just gone age, age 15 or whatever. It's too late. But they're delighted that there's this government support for primary school kids so that we can gradually see a shift and change. Um, but. The change is not dramatic over here. Um, you know, it, it's maybe not the big story that we are hearing in the UK and on the news. There's a fair bit of propaganda with Albanese sort of saying, you know, 4.9 million accounts have been, um, deactivated. But he doesn't mention how many have been reactivated from my, from what I can see, it's pretty much like 99% of them. Um, but you know, it, it's, it's an interesting thing. Um, when I tell

Alastair Greeneryou, one of the things that Jonathan het, one of the things Jonathan Het was saying was that the, one of the ways that they get around it is having VPNs, um, which, uh, these networks that you, you can use, and he was saying the friction was for anecdotally with the friction frictionless two greats they were giving up. That doesn't sound like that's

Emma Clarknot hearing that. No, I haven't heard any of that, to be honest. Uh, the, the teenagers I've spoken to just say, nah, nothing's changed. Um, and they just find, they, they, they're almost laughing at how easy it is to, to circumnavigate, but. I, I can sort of see, I can see the argument, you know, it is too, it is kind of too late. The damage has been done there, you know, and it's too much ingrained in part of their lives, part of their social lives. It is the way they communicate, it's the way they get their news, you know, on the positive side. It's the way they learn a lot of things, you know, as well through YouTube, and, and that's how they consume the news as well.

Alastair GreenerOne of the concerns that people have raised is that, that youngsters in the future will if, if the ban exists, if it, if it continues and it works and the emerging generations aren't on social media, but then there's a concern that at 15 that suddenly go off a cliff. And they suddenly, you know, they haven't got used to it. They're, you know, trying to deal with teenagers and trying to guide them and everything else, you know, it, it's a little bit too much straight away. It's like jumping straight into the deep end of the pool rather than working your way deeper and deeper and deeper. Is there a viewpoint or a kind of like a thought process of how to deal with that in Australia?

Emma ClarkI haven't have, I haven't spoken to anyone about that. There's, there's just this. Um, hope for primary school age kids. I've, I've spoken to a couple of parents who've chosen to get their young, uh, their primary school age kids, apple watches instead, where they can, you know, have a little bit of access to, you know, very limited apps and, and parents know where they are and they can keep in touch with a few people. But it's very, you know, very safe, much safer, limited way of, of using technology. Again, something that wasn't really around, you know, when, when, uh, my kids. That were accessing social media. It just wasn't the thing that people were doing, but.

Alastair GreenerSo as a parent of Gen Z children and also being in Australia, having followed this conversation and we, we first got in contact probably about a month ago to say, right, we were gonna have this conversation, what kind of conclusions have you come up with in that might be helpful for kids here in the UK and parents of here in the UK when it comes to social media usage, when it comes to use, the use of their mobile phones?

Emma ClarkOh gosh. Um, I mean, I have a lot of compassion for parents of, of kids my age in that, you know, it feels like. We are fighting a, a losing battle in terms of it, it feels like a constant battle against social media and, but we know ourselves how addictive phones have become, you know, I, I have to battle it myself. Um, so I just feel a huge amount of compassion. We sort of, we all know that this has become a beast that feels almost impossible to contain. Um, and yet we feel kind of helpless. When it comes to containing it, the best I've come up with as a parent and I'm by no means an expert on this or whatever. The best I can come up with as a parent is to share really openly with my kids. How addictive I find social media myself and I ask them to help me put restrictions on apps. I kind of play the Fool and I kind of go, oh Tom, I've been on Instagram for two hours. Can you, can you help me just get it? You know, can you put a limit on it for 15 minutes for me? 'cause I can't control my addiction, that kind of thing. And I'm trying to teach them ways of kind of self-managing, I guess. Or maybe we'll have conversations around the dinner table where we'll share how many hours we've been on our phones that day. It almost like a kind of walk of shame kind of discussion because what, I guess what we, what we need to do now is kind of advocate for self-management. You know, that's kind of what we want kids to be able to do. What they're gonna have to be able to do in the future is manage this very addictive device, um, and try and put, you know, limit. On their own apps, try and find a way to be a little bit ashamed that they were on for that long. Um, and so I have those conversations around the dinner table with them.

Alastair GreenerAnd you know, the fact that you're having the conversation is great and, and I'm, as you know, in the work that we've done and the work that I'm doing now with generations, it's about having that conversation. It's about having the understanding. My concern, I think, is for those families where that conversation. Isn't happening for whatever reason. There's a multitude of reasons, uh, that I wouldn't go into, um, why those conversations aren't happening, but that's where I feel most concerned because if there, if there isn't best practice by parents in front of youngsters, it becomes a challenge for those youngsters to develop good habits themselves.

Emma ClarkI mean, Australians are just bemused as to why every country isn't, isn't putting a ban in place because ultimately, although it's had no immediate impact, they can see the impact it's gonna have on, on younger kids. So they, they just don't understand where the places are stalling. They don't understand where they just, just do it. Like, it's a bit like, what are you waiting for? It's pretty obvious that this is what we need to do to protect. The next generation coming through. Uh, you know, and it seems pretty obvious to me as well, knowing what we know now about social media. Um, and it's, I mean, it's a pretty blunt instrument, this blanket ban. There's probably more sophisticated ways of doing it. Um, but as ever, the conversation is always, why aren't the tech companies doing more, you know, um, it, it feels like, you know, because they've abdicated responsibility, it falls on parents. And then on governments. But really the, the responsibility really lies with the tech companies who are just not taking any responsibility at all. As we can see, as many parents have tried to, you know, who've tragically lost children, have tried to hold tech, hold media, tech, uh, social media companies to account and just are fighting a losing battle against that beast.

Alastair GreenerEmma, I could be, we could be talking for two hours on this. It's so, but you know what, not only is it really, you know, just in incredible to find out your, um, your perspectives, you know, from being, you know, from your background, you know, your challenges with mental health. Having two Gen Z children now being in Australia observing what you've done and working in schools, you know, you've got so much, uh, there and, and certainly by the way, I urge anybody who has got youngsters listen to the Anxiety Uncovered podcast, uh, that Joe and uh, Emma have been involved in because it really. Helps really put into sharp focus what's happening in schools and what's happening with our youngsters today. Sadly, we, we have, we are out of time, but what I do want to finish up with though is there will be a lot of people listening who either have children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, who are navigating this complicated world of increased mental health concern and also the massive debate over social media and devices and so on. In terms of bringing those generations together, bridging that gap, have you got any sort of pearls of wisdom from all your experience in schools and, you know, life experience that you could share with us?

Emma ClarkWell, I'm not sure if this is not, I'm not sure if this fully addresses your question, but I guess what I've learned when it comes to parenting or dealing with young people is that often because we are older, are we, uh, and we have more experience, we assume we know best and we assume we could advise and. Tell people what to, you know, tell young people what to do and solve their problems very quickly. But I found actually that, that isn't that helpful. And often what is more helpful when it comes to bridging the gap between generations is just asking them what they need. There's a very easy, um, easy, like, easy way of remembering it that I try and make myself remember when, uh, I'm speaking to a young person who clearly wants. You know, wants help or, you know, wants me to listen and it's something called the three Hs. And, um, it sounds a bit contrived, and I don't phrase it this way, but really what, you know, if I can sense a child wants to talk to me or a young person wants to talk to me, I've gotta discern what they need, first of all. And the three Hs are, do you wanna be held, do you wanna be helped, or do you wanna be heard? So do you wanna, do you wanna be held? Is, do you just need a hug? Do you wanna be helped? Is do you want my advice? Or do you wanna be heard? Which means do you just wanna talk about it? So rather than me jumping in my, my pearls of wisdom or the way I wanna deal with it, instead I sort of ask them what they need. And often that's, that's a way that to, to bridge communication and, and, and let them lead, um, by asking them what they need. So it's a small little thing. My three hatred.

Alastair GreenerI love that your three hs. That's just absolutely brilliant and it's not a million miles away from the model. I have the five steps to greater intergenerational, um, cohesiveness, which is exactly that. Be curious, listen. Um, then don't judge, don't compare and just accept we are different. So, you know, actually, but you put it, you put it really succinctly with the three Hs. Emma, it's been an absolute joy, um, to see you. Hopefully we'll see you back here, here in the uk. Um, well, when the weather's got better, I'll see you back here and we'll get together. 'cause you're, you, you don't live that far away from me and we can continue the conversation. And actually, I, I, I think you, we need to get you back on here when you come back from Australia because that will then have a few months of, um. Of, of experience and knowledge and conversations. But for the moment, Emma Clark, thank you so much.

Emma Clarkfine. And a few months down the line, anxiety uncovered will have, uh, developed even further. And I can talk to you more about our work in schools. 'cause it's not just the podcast. We're working in all sorts of educational environments, running workshops, helping young people. So I can talk to you more about that then as well. But I'd love to come back, Alastair. I'd be happy

Alastair GreenerI think, I think I, I can feel that return coming maybe Joe, the, the two of you together or something. We'll

Emma ClarkYeah. Great. Yeah.

Alastair GreenerWe'll see. We'll see how that goes. And again, in the show notes, we've got anxiety uncovered all the details there for people. Uh, they want to follow you and they also want to listen to the podcast. Emma, have a good night there in Australia

Emma Clarkwill do. You know, I think I'm gonna go for a swim. I'm gonna swim in the sea. How's that? See you later. Good to see you,

Alastair GreenerLove it. Thanks Emma. Okay, bye. And thank you for listening as well to another episode of Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking, and I'll see you again in two weeks. Bye for now. Speaker 3: The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.