The Practical Side of Self-Aware Leadership and its impact across generations

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. Now my guest today helps executives and leaders catalyze performance, avoid burnout, and build healthy, high trusts cultures using the pioneering, scientifically backed conscious leadership performance system that she created. Uh, she's writing her. Second book at the moment and also has her own podcast, so I better take note. And that podcast is called Peace is A Choice, and today she's a guest on my podcast. So it's a great pleasure to welcome Natasha Wallace. Hi Natasha.

Natasha WallaceHi. Thank you for having me

Alastair GreenerWell, it's, it's great to have you on the show, and again, what I love about this podcast is that we've got so many people from different backgrounds and different disciplines, and I think you are the first person who I've had on, on the show with your background. Certainly, I think you are the only, the second fellow podcaster and certainly your work and the fact that it's scientifically backed is, is really good. But we're gonna get to that in a moment. I wanna start off by talking about your generation, who you are now. You are a very young, uh, gen X, uh, which, and of course Gen X was between 1965 and 1980, and you are very much towards the end. So you're a bit of a cusp if you like. And I dunno how much you know about what the expectations of a Gen xr, but do you see yourself as fairly typical of people of your age group?

Natasha WallaceWell, I mean, I'd like to think I'm not, but I probably am. I mean, I, I would like to know a little bit more about what is typical of my age group.

Alastair GreenerWell, you were the, the Gen X generation, not so much the latter part, but certainly the, the beginning of Gen X were very much the latchkey kids, so it was the first time in history when, um, a lot of households had. Both parents working and kids were, would come home and literally let themselves in the house and get on with it. They were, um, just let to go out and roam the countryside and roam the streets a little bit, which sounds of almost feral, but they were given a huge amount of freedom by their parents. Um, and that framed them in, in terms of the level of resilience that they now have as adults. The level of creativity, the level of problem solving that they had. And round about 19 80, 81, when the millennials came along, which were basically the boomer kids, uh, the boomers having kids. Things switched a little bit and society became a little bit more child centric. And that was where in, in my work that I see that there was a big shift. How, how does that all resonate?

Natasha WallaceYeah, I mean, totally resonates. I spent a lot of time on my own as a child, as I was an only child until I was 10. So yeah, I mean, I'd be out playing on scaffolding and building sites and, uh, didn't spend a huge amount of time with my, with my parents.

Alastair GreenerAnd of course that frames who you are, and obviously you will have a level of resilience and problem solving thing because of that. And how do you think that reflects in the way that you bring up your daughter? Did you have the mentality of, well, I'm not gonna do that, or I'm going to do things deliberately differently, or it just evolved?

Natasha WallaceYeah, I mean, that is a really interesting question. Um, I, I'm quite intentional as a parent, but I don't necessarily think that it's just because of my, my upbringing. I mean, it definitely is to some extent because of that. I think it's also because of my own journey. Because I specialize in conscious leadership and it's all about a deep self understanding. I think as soon as you really start learning more about yourself and who you are and what's formed you, and your beliefs and your limiting beliefs, and all of those. Good things. Um, and you also think about the impact of your formative years, like the pet, your parents and caregivers or the, the significant people in your life. You have the opportunity to make some choices to do things differently. And so I think it's all of, it's all of that really that's influenced my parenting style.

Alastair GreenerAnd interestingly, before we started recording the podcast, we were talking about the differences of what frames us as an individual. And as you say, there's behavior, there's generations, there's a multitude of different things in there, which we will, we will get to that in two course. Um, first of all. Let's talk a bit more then about your family life growing up again. You know, you were saying that, you know, your, your mother wasn't as hands on, your parents weren't as hands on. Um, what about at school? What about sort the general up upbringing? What was that like for you?

Natasha WallaceLife. Well, I mean, actually I'm writing about this in my second book because there's been a real journey of transformation. 'cause my childhood wasn't particularly easy. So I have an Irish mother and Assyrian father. And my mother came to England when she was in her twenties and met my father, um, who was an asylum seeker in the uk. And, um. They split up when I was a baby, and so my mom ended up moving back to Ireland and we stayed there until I was six. And the reason that we moved back to England again is because mom said that we were always ostracized in Irish society. Now, I mean, this is her perception. You know, they say perception is reality. This was the experience that my mother had where she said, because she was a divorced woman in Ireland back in the eighties, um, and I was the, uh, daughter s Syrian father. She said that just came with all sorts of problems for us. Um, she said we were never really included in Irish society and that people, she, I mean, she would say that people would talk behind their hands when we went out. And she always said to me that the reason that she brought me back to England was because she thought that I would never be given a chance in Ireland. And so that's really like the backdrop to, um. My life in so far as that was the starting point for it. And, and it, there's, there's an interesting segue to the work that you do because it has made me think very seriously and take very seriously inclusion because I had that very early formative experience of exclusion. Um, and so I, I really think that that has influenced who I am and how I show up, and the extent to which I accept other people now.

Alastair GreenerWow, that really is fascinating. And, and as you say, you know, Ireland at the time, Ireland clearly isn't the same in 20 25, 20 26. So it, it, it is fascinating to see that snapshot of time and that's the, the really a lot of. The strength in generational thinking is because that does have an impact on an individual and what shaped them and what formed them. And the fact that you then went on to be involved in inclusion and um, in looking at behavior is, is so, so interesting. And, and there's a very good chance, I'm sure, um, that that's the reason that you got into that. Because of the, you know, that upbringing, how conscious that was and how subconscious, of course, is, is, is another matter. So yeah. Tell me a little bit more about your work then. You know, first of all, the fact that you've got this scientifically backed system, how does that work?

Natasha WallaceWell, so about eight years ago as a senior leader, I burnt out and it was a big shock to my system. I wouldn't have ever have thought that I would've burnt out. 'cause going back to your point about resilience, my formative years, and actually there was much, much more to it than, than what I've shared. But it made me very re. You know, I, I was very independent from a very young age. My mom was a single mother. She was trying to sort of hold it all together. I didn't get a huge amount of attention. My father never came back, so I didn't have any relationship with him. So it led to. Inner strength. I didn't realize I had it, but I definitely did and made me incredibly resilient. Um, but also I, I didn't really have a sense of family when I was growing up, um, because we then left Ireland when I was very young, so we weren't with our family. So we were in England predominantly on our own. Um, and my mum moved around a lot because she. Has had lots of issues in her life and it led to her sort of constantly moving. So we never really found this strong base or community sense of belonging. I didn't really get that until I got to work, so I took my job really, really seriously. I mean, I did then I always have, and then eight years ago I burnt out. So it was this very resilient and independent woman. I had this like cataclysmic burnout experience and it was a huge shock to my system. Um, and it was the combination really of that time, that experience that I had and feeling that the people around me, my fellow leaders didn't really have my back, which is partly what led to my burnout. Um, so I felt a little bit excluded during that time and then, you know, it sort of brought me all, yeah.

Alastair Greenerinterject there because, and, and I, I promise you, I will let you finish that story because it's really, really interesting. But I just wanted to bring in that interesting generational aspect to that burnout because one of the things that we're seeing is a lot of Gen Zs are seeing exactly what you experienced and saying. I'm not prepared to put up with that. I don't want to have to go through that. I've seen it happen with my parents or parents and I don't want that. And that is shaping today's workplace because of what they're seeing with their Gen X parents. And again, are, are you getting that sense with, with, with your family and the Gen Zs that you see around you that, that that sense of they're not prepared to put up with what you put up with.

Natasha WallaceUh, sort of, sort of. So I, for the first time, actually, I've done a lot of work with Gen Zs this year. Um, applying conscious leadership at, at another level in, in organizations. I've worked with quite a large number of them and yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to say that they definitely don't want to experience the same version of work as we experienced. But it's actually really hard to defend against it

Alastair GreenerMm,

Natasha Wallacebecause we are working in a climate where we're having to do more with less. There's lots of pressure. They're in this interesting place where they're having to prove themselves. They're having to demonstrate their worth. They're still learning. They're still learning the ropes. So they have to work hard, but they sort of don't want to work so hard. I think that creates some tension and some resentment.

Alastair GreenerYeah. And, and, and again, it wasn't so much a, a judgment as an observation of something that we're seeing. And yeah, you're quite right. It's completely understandable in many respects because of what they were able to see. So, going back to your journey, so you, you, you had this, you know, as I think you used the word cataclysmic, um, just to break down. So what happened then?

Natasha WallaceUm, well, I mean, in the months after that, I had to really do some self searching as to why it happened. I felt that I was a failure. I sort of had a bit of an identity crisis. I was an HR director and my job was to take care of the wellbeing performance of the workforce, and then I. You know, broke. So that didn't make any sense to me, and it made me feel like a fraud. Um, so for the next few months, I ha I had to do some deep reflection into what actually happened. And to start with, I thought it was because I just worked long hours. Um, and then I realized it, it wasn't that, you know, I probably could have carried on working long hours for, for years. I had done, you know, I had done for the previous decade and a half, um. But it was, it was more to do with the conflicts, I guess, that I was facing with the leaders around me and tension between my values and the values that other people were operating against. And, you know, over the course of time, that was like death by a thousand cuts. And I think, you know, if you. Feel very passionately about something. If you're very purposeful in your endeavors, if you want to do the right thing by other people, which I think unknowingly actually was, was absolutely fundamental to who I was because I wasn't able to do the right thing by people as an HR director as much as I would've wanted to. Eventually that that took me down.

Alastair GreenerAnd you've created this system and, and I'm guessing part of it is because you wanted to help other people not necessarily go through, um, you know, what you went through, but also this was a purposeful leadership that, uh, you could tell me a little bit more about that model that you now do and how you help the leadership teams in organizations.

Natasha WallaceWell, so it, it was the, the awakening was, it was a lack of consciousness that led me to burnout. I just didn't know enough about myself. All these things that I subsequently learned about myself, um, only happened through me giving it very intentional thought and reflection and working with, you know, coaches and therapists and doing. Lots of inner work and I, that's when I realized that the environment that I'd been operating in had been sort of incongruent with my values. That I had a very strong, per sense of purpose, that my role wasn't upholding, um, and that I just needed to be more aware of myself and. Be in a position to curate an environment around me and sustain myself so that, you know, I didn't burn out again. And, and of course then I had this big realization that it wasn't just me feeling like that, you know, leaders were feeling like that all over the place. And leaders do feel like that all over the place where they feel stressed or anxious or tense or exhausted, or they're burning. It's a very, very normal part of leadership, unfortunately, because we're constantly having to mask how we really feel to show up in a certain way for everybody else, and often we're beyond capacity and that those are the things that really lead to burnout. I now know that, now that I specialize in it. So the conscious leadership model was about how do. We support leaders to connect with who they really are, to understand themselves better, so that they can take the steps that they need to take to sustain themselves, either in the environment that they're working in, or realizing that the environment that they're working in isn't right for them. I mean, normally that's not what happens normally. We do enable them to just understand themselves better so they can make better daily choices, really. But also there's often a mindset shift. Um, 'cause when you understand yourself better, it changes your mind about things. It changes your perception. It helps you to understand other people better. So that's where all of my work is done now, and I was fortunate enough to get investment for my model and to build it and to scale it. And I worked with University College of London to go through a validation process and, and the hypothesis was. Being more conscious as a leader leads to better outcomes. So I, I would've said that it was, it made you a better leader and it kept you more, well, basically,

Alastair GreenerAnd I'd be interested to see how that works across generations. 'cause we touched on that a little bit already, that you would expect the older generations, again, um, I'm, I'm always about, we're framed by our generation, not defined by it. But you know, again, the stereotype would suggest that actually, you know, the older generations, older Gen Xs, and. Out. And, um, boomers see this as being a little bit too touchy, feely a little bit, oh, for goodness sake, don't need to do all of that kind of thing. And but younger generations, so millennial leaders that you're working with be a little bit more open to all of that. Uh, where does that fit into terms of the way that you interact across generations? Would that be a fair reflection?

Natasha Wallacesort of, I think it's half true. I think that there are, I think there are senior leaders who see this as being sort of fluffy and soft. Um, I actually worked with JP Morgan Chase as one of my first clients years ago, and I can remember that the managing director that I worked with, who was very pioneering in his approach, hearing about what I did and, uh. We, we were in the room with an HR colleague and she said, oh, I think Natasha's work is more for the wellbeing team. I'm gonna put her in touch with the head of wellbeing. And he was like, absolutely not. I see this work. Being right at the center point between leadership performance and leadership wellbeing. This isn't a wellbeing thing. This is an operational thing. We need to support our leaders to not burn out, to feel okay in their jobs to do a good job. He just got it. So I think there are, and of course I've worked with many, many leaders and, and, uh. Large businesses often, normally large businesses, but it can be small since then. Um, because they just get it. They understand They're having more and more of their leadership team coming to them saying like, I'm struggling. And they understand that they need support. But then going back to your point about the, the younger generations, are they more open to this? I would say that when you create the space for the, for the average leader to tell the truth about how they're really feeling, it's one of the most c cathartic experiences, one of the most liberating experiences that they can have because they are masking all of the time. So you just really need to create that safe in incubator, and that's either on a one-to-one or in a group setting, which is what I do. Um, and that, you know, pours out. It pulls out of them. They tell the truth and they're like, oh my God, I feel so much better for having done that. What's interesting about the younger generation is that they are still developing their emotional intelligence. They're still developing their awareness. So although I would've expected them to be like, oh, this is so obvious, of course you need to understand yourself too. To feel better and do a better job and to be a better leader. Um, they definitely have the aspiration to be a better leader, but they still don't really understand themselves, so it's as relevant for them, but they're probably just less close to burnout.

Alastair GreenerYeah. And I, I know that one of the things that we talked about when we first met, um, we talked about this, the, the challenges with leadership, working with other people and with other generations, and again, a. You touched on it earlier, the perception of younger employees coming into the workplace, having a very different expectations to the ones that, that the bosses had. How do you navigate that in, in your work? Because obviously it's getting them to know themselves, but then to be accepting of difference. And you used the word quite a few times already, uh, to be more inclusive. And of course that means also generationally inclusive.

Natasha WallaceYeah, well, so I think the bottom line is that as humans, we are not hugely tolerant of each other. So I mean, I did a piece of work with 70. MDs managing directors in a consulting firm where I worked in one-to-one with all of them and one of the. Threads that ran through a lot of the conversations that I was having with them was, we are not understood. We don't think we can tell the truth anymore. We can't be ourselves, we can't be authentic. Um, I can't, I can't be myself around the younger generation because now there's so much risk involved with that. So I'm just not gonna speak anymore. I mean, there was this, this sort of a resentment building. I'm not gonna speak anymore. I don't think I can say anything. Without the fear of getting into trouble or offending somebody. So I'm, you know, I'm opting out. Now, bearing in mind, these are the leaders of the business, so that's hugely problematic. 'cause if they opt out of conversations with the people that they lead o obviously, I mean, I don't need to explain why that's a problem. But then on the flip side, you've got the younger generation. Who have a totally intolerant often to these older generations and their behavior, so they become intolerant of each other. You've got the older people saying, you know, that the younger generation are, are woke, or they're oversensitive or, you know, whatever. And then you have the younger generation saying that the older generation are old fashioned and they don't understand anything and they don't, you know, um, show enough respect and care. Um. And I think it's all true. I think all of that is true. So

Alastair Greenerit's certainly something I hear about a lot in my work. You, you hear that constantly, you know, from people and, and this almost guilt that they, the, the senior leadership know the older generations. They know they need to be better dealing with it, but they, they, you know, you've implied it there, they're almost paralyzed by not knowing and, and this the lack of communication of, and also the acceptance of. I think it's about intention, isn't it? You know, where does the intention lie? And if we worked with intention more than the actual way it manifests itself, that would probably be a little bit better.

Natasha WallaceYeah, well, I couldn't agree more. I. What my work has taught me is that we just all need to be a little bit more accepting of each other. This isn't about, you know, the older ones are wrong and the younger ones are right, or vice versa. This is about, we have to hear each other. You know, the young, the younger folks need to understand that the older folks come from a different generation. They have a different experience of life. They have been formed and shaped. By their experience of the world and the younger generation have been formed and shaped by their experience of the world. The thing that needs to happen is a mutual respect and understanding and a willingness to understand each other's viewpoint and to listen and to hear each other, and to see each other as humans in order to to understand. I think the only caveat to that is. Bad behavior is bad behavior. Bad leadership is bad leadership, and, um, a young, unaware voice who is confrontational and disruptive is bad behavior too. So, so we shouldn't, we shouldn't tolerate bad behavior that the leader needs to work on themselves and be a better person, and the young person needs to recognize that they don't have all of the answers. And be curious. But there is definitely a need to really understand each other's worlds in order for, for that all to come together.

Alastair GreenerI really like the way you, you effectively have separated understanding and, but to a point that, you know, bad behavior, as you said is bad behavior and then actually saying, yes, we need to understand, but there's a point in time. No, that's just not civilized behavior to whoever. Whoever's doing it. And I think that's, that's a really, really good point because we're all told to understand, I had a great term the other day, which is having authentic listening, which I completely endorse, but there does come a point in time when actually, you know. That needs correcting that behavior, especially poor behavior, uh, needs some form of intervention. So that's really, really interesting. I cannot believe how much we, we've rattled through, um, an awful lot, but we, we don't have a huge amount more time. So one of the things I, I would like to understand is the sort of. The way that you help the, those generations break down those barriers that they have between them. The lack of understanding, you've obviously touched on it in terms of listening and not making judgements. Are there any other things that you do in, in your, do, you know, work, shopping or, or something that will break down those, those barriers?

Natasha WallaceWell, I think it's, it's self understanding ultimately. I mean, it's interesting. I wish that somebody had showed up to me in my, in my earlier years, in my twenties and my thirties, and told me what really good leadership looks like beyond. You need to communicate with people and you need to make sure that you give them clear direction and you need to manage change effectively, which was often what leadership development looked like back in the day. Or you need to know how to have difficult conversations with people who are underperforming. Often leadership development lends itself to the sort of lowest common denominator, um, from the research that we've done into what really great leadership looks like. Really great leaders. See their people, they hear, they, their people, their advocates for them. They are present, they show up, they give them clear direction. Um, so from a leadership perspective that those are the behaviors that create inclusion. They're the behaviors that allow your people to feel like they matter. That's all anybody wants to feel like we're all yearning for this feeling of being seen and understood. So, you know, that's what the leaders have to do. They have. They have to create an environment where their team members feel seen and understood. And of course for the, for the younger generations that are coming through, they need to work in an environment or they need to contribute towards a healthy environment where everybody feels seen and understood. It's sort of a great amount of tolerance and self understanding and emotional intelligence. I mean, ultimately we all just need to work on ourselves because when we. Understand ourselves. When we're more accepting of ourselves, then we can be more forgiving and understanding of other, other people. And it all, you know, it's a beautiful ecosystem that it, it starts with self.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and I like the way that you are, are saying that it's actually up to every single one of us. One of the things that I see in my work in generational communication is that people are focused on a particular generation and how everybody else can work with that generation where a. I like to see it more of a holistic picture. The fact that actually it's everyone interacting with everybody else and accepting that we are very different people. We were brought up in a different world that has framed us in the way that we think. So yeah, that, that's really valuable to talk. And, and actually I love hearing from, I, I know we shouldn't be looking for people who, uh, effectively endorse the thinking that we have. But it, it shows that you're on the right track sometimes, especially when your work has come with such a, a, a strong scientific background. I just want to finish off if, if I may, with maybe two or three very quick tips that as takeaways that people listening to this podcast, um, can use that will help create more generationally cohesive workplaces. What are your kind of top tips?

Natasha WallaceWell, I, I'm just gonna use the, the three sections of my new book because they've, they've come from years and years of research and also ap the application of, of conscious leadership. The first one is get conscious. So learn how to breathe, take a few deep breaths, step back and objectively look at what's really going on and say to yourself, you know, what's really happening here? And there's an incredible book called, um. What happened to them. So rather than saying like, why are they doing that, which often is, you know, comes from a place of a lack of tolerance, what has happened to them that leads them to behave like that is a much, much better question to ask yourself. So I guess that's the first thing. The second part of my book is about radically loving, um, and. This was one of the first realizations I had after my burnout was that one, sometimes we need to really demonstrate sort of loving behavior in, in a, in a place or in an environment or in situation where love become is a really difficult thing to access. And what I mean by love is acceptance and forgiveness and understanding and lack of judgment. Um, we need to find it for ourselves. Because we can only find it for other people when we, when we find it for ourselves. So I call it radical love 'cause it's sort of loving where love often doesn't naturally show up. And then the third tip is about deeply believing. You have to believe that other people are doing their best. That we all, generally speaking, most of us aren't in sabotage mode most of the time. I mean, we are sometimes, but you know, people are really genuinely trying to do their best. So if you are a younger generation that's looking at senior leader going, they're an absolute moron. Like how did they even get that job? Like they probably are doing their best. That now their best may not be good enough. And I go back to my caveat about. Bad behavior is bad behavior, but, but most people are doing their best. And when you look at the younger generation and you are like, you know, they're woke or they're a snowflake or whatever it is, you, you wanna see them as they're also doing their best. Like we all, we all are trying to just get through on a day-to-day basis. So if you believe that then actually allows you to just be a little bit more accepting of the people around you.

Alastair GreenerWhat a great close to the podcast. Thank you so much. That's some real pearls of wisdom and it's just been great chatting to you. Getting the insights that you have and hearing it from a behavioral perspective, um, is really brilliant. I wish you all the best with your, with your book. Um. Also with your podcast as well. Um, I know the book will be out soon, and we'll, um, put all of those details in the show notes so people can follow you, uh, connect with you and also see some of your, uh, amazing work. Natasha, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thanks for coming on the podcast and, uh, thanks everyone for listening. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.