Anxiety, Humour, and Raising Kids in a Smartphone World

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. Now today's guest is a standup comedian, presenter, and founder of Anxiety Uncovered, helping young people. Parents and teachers understand and manage anxiety through humor, storytelling, and evidence-based tools. It's a great pleasure to chat with Joe Roundtree. Joe, welcome to the podcast.

Joe RowntreeHello. Good afternoon, Alastair. How are you?

Alastair GreenerI'm good and I should have said fellow podcaster as well, uh, who's done incredibly well with this podcast. So, uh, congratulations on that. And you know, you like me, have slightly pivoted your work over the last few years. Where you've been an expert in communication and you're now looking particularly at, um, young People's Health and and so on. We, we'll come to that in a moment. 'cause I'm really interested in understanding the, the generations that you work with and the challenges that you help them through. And you're gonna give some practical tips and tools to help them, but also. Parents, teachers, and people around them. But I wanna start off with you, if I may, and you know, looking at your generation, you are a millennial. Are you a typical millennial, do you think?

Joe RowntreeAm I a typical millennial? Well, I was born in 1982, so I had an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. So I'm sort of in that, that messy middle. So I'm, I think I'm more class as an zenni Is, is this a term you are.

Alastair GreenerYou, you are absolutely right. Yeah. It's what they call a micro generation and there's, there's numerous micro generations and Al is a cusper generation, so it's between Gen X and millennial. Yeah. So you are a cusper. There you go.

Joe Rowntreeyeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah. So it was, uh, I remember it was quite a big deal when Channel Five came out. When I was growing up, we had four channels. Everyone was like, there's this new channel. And then obviously we went into, you know, game Boys, game gears. That was my sort of teenage life. And then, yeah, you look at life now and it's just gone. It's gone crazy. So yeah, I'm an Xen Nal.

Alastair Greeneryou, you've got a little boy and you know, you comparing your upbringing to his. Where are the comparisons? Where, where are things massively different and maybe where are the, where are the some similarities?

Joe RowntreeWell, I guess now I am so sensitive to everything that they are exposed to because it's a big issue as we know. Um, my lad's 10, my daughter's nine, and we're in that we. Realm of getting phones and stuff. So yeah, I mean, smartphone free childhood. I've been following them for a long time. So I got my, my lad a balanced phone, and this is a great company. We're based in Barcelona, so it looks like a smartphone. It's not a brick phone. And. Even though it looks like it, it can't access social media, it can't access the internet. You can get certain child friendly apps. So yeah, that's, that's been working and he's just not that bothered with it. But there are a lot of kids in his year that have got smartphones. They're on TikTok, they're on internet. They've got literally access to the Wild West, and it's, it's crazy. Yeah.

Alastair GreenerAnd actually it's, it's quite interesting because peer pressure has always been an issue, you know, of whatever age group. It just seems to be that much more in the microscope right now that you know that it's, it's an even bigger deal, that level of peer pressure now. So is it guidance from you or is it just his own makeup that he's not? He's, he's not bowing to that peer pressured, which other youngsters could in terms of coming home and expecting you to follow suit of his mate's parents.

Joe RowntreeYeah. I mean, I think because of the work that I do, and I'm a sort of advocate of young people and I work with young people from a very young age, I've tried to educate him on what social media is. You know, for example, you know you are, when you go on social media, you are a. Customer, you are a consumer and they will feed you information to try and keep you on the platform as long as possible. And they're tracking you. And often the things they will show you is the negative stuff to, to, to, to scare you because we tend to get attracted to negative stuff more. That's why negativity sells. And you know, if you are not on there selling something, then you are the, the customer. And I think especially young people, teenagers, when they know that, when they're actually aware that they've been manipulated, they're a bit. Hang on a minute. No, I didn't. I didn't think it was like this, and I think there there're a lot more. Against it. Now they're a lot more aware of it. For example, I was in school the other day and I said, and this was year 11, so these what? 15, 16. I said, put your hands up if you were given a smartphone in the last, you know, sort of five, 10 years, you know, most of 'em put their hands up. And I said, put your hands up if you would have preferred not to have been given the smartphone when you did. IE left a lot later and I'd say 95% of 'em put their hand up, which was, which was quite illuminating.

Alastair Greenerreally telling. Yeah. One of the things that we are, we're seeing now is because people are aware of the damage or the potential damage that these devices can cause. I'm, I'm actually quite, I dunno about you, but I'm actually quite positive about the next generation because parents are more savvy to it and therefore more aware and won't fall into the same, same issues that parents before them have gone through who didn't know.

Joe RowntreeYeah, I think it'll be a little bit like smoking. You know, when smoking was cool and everyone thought it was all right and you know, actors and doctors were telling you that it was good for you, I think we'll look back and be like, what? What are we doing? You know, now? Now look at all the evidence that's come out. I mean, all the evidence is there. You know, Jonathan Height, anxious generation. I mean, you know, you can't deny it. Now, I think a few years back it was like everyone was guessing, but now, now the evidence is, is there, especially with, you know, girls and Instagram. But this is not just uk. This is, this is worldwide. You know, mental health went, you know, down the Swanee and you know, sort of. 2010, you know, 12 with the advent of the smartphone and, and Instagram. So I think we'll just look back and just be like, wow, I can't believe that those social media companies were allowed to do it. But then, then there'll be another challenge. There'll be, there'll be ai, there'll be something else. I mean, it used to be, it used to be comic books, didn't it? And everyone was like, well, comic books polluting the generation, you know? But I think every

Alastair GreenerI'm going to be.

Joe Rowntreething.

Alastair GreenerIn in, um, later on we're going to be talking to your colleague, Emma Clark, who works with you, um, because she's going to be in Australia and she's gonna give me, and I'm sure you as well, some direct feedback of how the ban on social media for under sixteens is going, which has been massive in the news towards the end of 2025. What's your view on. Banning phone banning, um, social media for under sixteens in terms of, you know, there's, there's a, a view that says that actually social media's okay, if it's done well and there's good parental guidance or actually, you know, just ban it and just don't put it in, in, in temptation. What, what's, where do you come from on all of that?

Joe RowntreeSo I think parents have a lot of responsibility for this. You know, if you have a parent who cares and understands and really gets what social media and a smartphone. Does to the, the growing adolescent brain, then I don't see any problem with having a sort of co dialogue, a co-relation between smartphone because it is like another entity. It's like smartphone, social media, parent and child. And I was reading something just last night about how. You know, if there's, I guess, transparency and the parent can look at the phone and there's, there's digital literacy, there's digital, uh, understanding, and there's, there's routines and stuff put in place. You know the amount of times that, the amount of hours that you are on it. For example, you know, the first hour of the day and the last hour of the day, that's when you're most vulnerable to these things. So you wouldn't have it then you wouldn't, you wouldn't have your mobile phone in the bedroom. Whole family charges phones downstairs. You have a little cheaper IKEA alarm clock on the bedside table, or, I mean, and I've just chucked to loads. There's 10, 10 things there, like 10 little habit tweaks as, as long as that is happening and agreed with, then you know, it's not necessarily social media or the smartphone that is a problem. It's how we are using it, which is a problem, and you know, our, our education around it. But on on the other side of that, there are parents that, for whatever reason, don't parent, can't parent, they're too busy and they're often using the smartphone, the tablet, as a way too parent. And they're literally going, right, have that eight hours a day. 'cause you're not bothering me. And I've been that parent. I'm not standing here going, I'm a perfect parent 'cause I'm not, because I've, I've used the smartphone and the tablet to go just have that for a couple of hours and just gimme a bit, bit of peace and quiet. So to have a complete blanket ban, it's gonna be interesting, isn't it? But I just think because the evidence is undeniable, you know. Adolescents. A teenage brain, as we know, doesn't stop developing until sort of mid twenties, and because social media is so toxic and teenagers are vulnerable because often it's not about, you know, what they're watching, it's about how they feel about themselves when they're watching it. And I think Bit, bit,

Alastair Greenerthat you have in around the dinner table afterwards and is indeed that conversation taking place. And yeah, I'm, I'm very much with you that it's, it, it's, it's about how something's done. But, you know, I, I have to say that. I'm erring on the side of the ban purely because there's children who aren't going to be protected by their parents and the family unit for whatever reason. There's a multitude of of them, and therefore it's adding in protection for those people who don't have the parental protection.

Joe RowntreeYeah. And also maybe those parents that just don't have the confidence and the relationship with their kids. You know, a lot of kids these days, this is why, you know, we work in schools. That's where we met Alastair, didn't we? You know? The behavior has changed exponentially in the last five years. You know, again, L-B-C-L-B-C this morning teach the, leaving the profession because they don't feel safe in the classroom. You know, young people are almost running the show, you know? They're, they're telling parents what to do. So I think the ban for these parents, it almost gives them, you know, a, a way just to go, oh, thank you. Because I, I, there's nothing I can do about it. And interestingly, I was speaking to Emma about this, and she was saying that apparently it's affecting a lot of the Outback kids, the kids that are further out in the sticks who don't really have that much, many connections. There's the whole idea of, you know, play-based childhood versus phone-based childhood. You know, the ones that are out, you know, in, in the Outback. The phone was actually a, a positive thing because it helped them stay connected. So I'm sure Emma will elucidate on on that more when you talk to her.

Alastair GreenerWell, a, a again, it's, it's one of those things that you bring in a blanket policy. It's going to have a myriad of reactions and knock on effects to people for, for different things. Let, let's move on away from phones for a second and, and talk maybe about education, because again, it's an area that you, you and I both know about, having worked in schools. And you know, you look at the education system and you know, you and I were in schools when people, kids were allowed to use their smartphones. They're now not because people recognize, but we've also seen a direction in the way that teaching takes place and things. And for you, looking at that, um. What impact do you think that's having on the generations of tomorrow that's different from the generations today? And the reason I say it is because to help people understand who have older generations, to help them understand what's actually happening in schools in terms of the style of education, the the way that children learn today.

Joe RowntreeWell, I mean, I don't think every school has got a handle on it. I was in a school the other day in Birmingham and their, their policy is that you hand the phone in at the beginning of the day, you get it on. The way out. Some phones have these little pouches where you can still have the phone on you, but you can't get into it. So it's like a, a magnetically sealed pouch. And you get some schools, I'm sure you've seen this recently, where you're walking around and they're all in it on the corridor. So there's still not, I guess this, this level of consistency across the, across the country. I mean, there's, there's different towns and different regions that do it. Um. But yeah, I think it is affecting education without a doubt. I mean, attention spans are shorter. I've certainly had to adapt my style of delivery. To, to, to suit the, the smartphone era. I mean, you know, you almost have to be a bit like an influence. You have to bounce around like a U YouTuber because, you know, their attention spans are so short. I mean, in some sessions I can almost see 'em just swiping left with their eyes. It's like, yeah, next one. Bored, bored, bored, bored. It's like, you gotta keep 'em, gotta keep 'em active. You gotta keep 'em alert because their, their attention spans are so short. And also I've had.

Alastair Greenerthat says a lot. That says a lot about the school teaching styles, how they might have had to adapt, and how parenting styles are having to adapt because of the consequences of the environment that the children are growing up in.

Joe RowntreeYeah, without a doubt, and I think some teachers just can't teach because. Kids have tapped out of education, did a session the other day, and you know, it's, um, a fairly engaging sort of guy and, you know, I've got a lot of tricks in the locker, 20 years. But this group, they were, they were impenetrable. They were like, nah mate, it doesn't matter what you say, we're, we're not gonna listen to you. You know, they're just there like heads on the tables there, half of them are, are asleep. And because they're probably in the bedrooms for most of the night. Gaming because you know they haven't had any sleep and that that's another issue as well. And, and also as well, I was wanna say, it's very easy just to catastrophize all this stuff and say this generation are outta control. And, you know, they've got low attention spans because there, there's another chunk of them isn't. We've been into loads of schools where you've got delightful young people and they've got a handle on this stuff and there there is di digital and emotional literacy. So I think, yeah, we, we tend to sometimes I think just sensationalize it a little bit and just think that, you know, the whole generation is like that and I don't, I don't think that's true.

Alastair GreenerAnd let's go on now to, um, which in, in fairness, it's intrinsically linked to, um, mental health in youngsters. Um, something that you specialize in. You know, you, you talk about your work with anxiety uncovered that you and Emma work with and, you know, you, you referenced to Jonathan Height's book earlier on, um, the Anxious Generation, a book, which I read, and I also quoted in, in my book. In terms of people, I really want to give some people some practical tips and advice because I think, you know, the debate is over. We know that they are an anxious generation. Anxiety is higher than it's ever been in youngsters, and therefore, let's now just. In our last, last 15 minutes, let's look at the ways that parents and teachers and adults can spot it and then help with that anxiety. So first of all, anxiety. How does it present itself in schools and at home?

Joe RowntreeSo anxiety rarely shows up as like mass panic, you know, if you're having a panic attack, that's almost like the the end result most of. The end result of a lot of sort of just re repeated thoughts and feelings, but I guess anxiety presents itself as avoidance, as, uh, irritability, perfectionism, procrastination, physical complaints. So it is really the, the behavior of these young people, which should be looked at. That's, that's the communication.

Alastair GreenerSo, so are you saying that that youngsters are unlikely to say, I'm feeling anxious, I'm feeling stressed, I'm feeling this, I'm feeling that it's going to more likely manifest itself in some form of different behavior pattern.

Joe RowntreeI think there's a lot that do, and I think a lot of them say it because it's the trendy thing to say. I think, and we know this in our communication skills workshops, we'll turn up and just for the people that don't know, Alice and I work for a great charity called Talk The Talk, and we go in and we help young people. With their OC and their public speaking. And throughout a workshop we'll get 'em to stand up and, uh, present. Now we go into schools and sometimes we have delightful days, and some days we'll go in and half the room are anxious and some of them are up for it. And others that, you know, sort of don't even come in because they know that they're gonna have to speak in, in front of their peers. And a lot of 'em will say, I can't do this because I'm anxious. You know, I've got anxiety. And it's like. Good. You should have anxiety 'cause you're a human being and if you didn't have it I'll be a bit worried for you. Um, so I think a lot of it is just a lack of understanding and I think people are almost weaponizing it to go, I can't do it, I'm too anxious. Anxiety's only really an issue when it, when it tips over into an anxiety disorder, when it starts actually affecting your life, which, which it did me, and that's why I'm so passionate about it. You know, I'm someone who is quite highly anxious, I would say highly high function anxiety. Uh, in July I got diagnosed officially is having a DHD, so that was quite illuminating in terms of actually finding that out at 43 and then looking back at my life and then. You know, realizing, okay, all those behaviors were because I had a, had a different brain. Um, but it really, it really came. Out of me as a result of, well, a lot of stupid decisions to be honest. I mean, 15 years ago I was on a stagger in Barcelona in Fancy Dress, and I got mugged and stabbed, uh, I dunno if I've told you this, Alastair. So I got stabbed twice, once in the back and once in the leg. And as a result of that, I was, you know, in a bit, bit of a dark place, as you can imagine. I went through the Mosley Hospital in southeast London as as an outpatient. So I went through. Full-blown treated P-T-S-D-O-C-D. On top of that, I've got quite an anxious brain anyway. So you have a brain that's quite. Naturally anxious, put on top of that an anxiety disorder. You know, I was, I was in a, in a pretty, pretty horrible place, and that's sort of why I'm so passionate about it is because no one ever taught me what was going on inside my head. And this is the problem. I think a lot of teenagers, if they just understood how their brain worked, how their nervous system worked, and how they, they were linked a bit about their thoughts and their beliefs and just how to manage themselves as human beings, then. I think they would be able to manage this situation that they're going through a lot easier. I remember the first time I went to therapy when I was really, really struggling, and by the way, it took me two years to actually pluck up the courage to go to someone and say, I'm really struggling. I need some help. I remember going in there and just saying, I've got this voice inside my head that is just so persistent. It won't leave me alone. It constantly tells me I'm not good enough, that I'm gonna die and that everyone's judging me. All the, all these thoughts, honestly, it was, it was so, it incessant to the point where I would just look forward to going to sleep because that's the only time that I would ever get any, uh, rest from it. And I remember telling the counselor this and she said, oh yeah, that, that's quite normal. Most people have a little voice inside their head that that sort of, you know, tells them that they're not very good. It's called, you're in a critic, you're in a dialogue, you know? And I was like, yeah, but I've got these thoughts that, you know, I'm always thinking about the future. And she's like, yeah, yeah, that's, that's sort of mind reading. That one's catastrophizing. That's black and white thinking. There's a name for it. They call cognitive distortions thinking errors. I'm like, what? Well, this is a thing. Then she gave me a handout and I was like, yeah, this is, this is what, what normal people think about. I'm like, why? Why did no one tell me about it? Why did, why did we not talk about this growing up? It's bonkers.

Alastair GreenerBut that's a really interesting point because a lot of people will say, especially adults, people of my age will often say, well, come on, it's stressful being young. It's stressful going through adolescence. Your hormones are all over the place. You are, you are finding yourself in, in a, in, in a world that's surrounded by adults and you are about to become one of those adults. And that actually is very. Pressurized very stressful. And it's anxious, but that's part of growing up. So the, so the question is, at what point is that normal growing up and at what point does it become, actually no. You, you need some more help than that because this isn't just growing up. How do parents and teachers and other people managed to identify that difference and, and come up with a, a fairly balanced approach to a young person's mental health?

Joe RowntreeWell, I think the first thing is being able to create a dialogue with young people, which is what I'm doing in the workshops and. Rather than, you know, what's, what's wrong with you? Or try and trying to get kids to go, oh, you don't wanna think like that. You don't wanna feel like that. It's almost like, look, help me understand what it is that you're going through. And I think there's not enough people out there that are willing just to sit with. These young people and just tell them that what they're going through is completely normal. Because I think a lot of them, and we all do grown up, don't we all think we are, we are the weird one. We are the only one that that's experiencing this. And what Emma and I do in the workshops is that we open up as, as adults, you know, I'm 43 and say, look, I'm feeling a bit anxious now. You know, I've, I've spent my whole life feeling a bit anxious. But it doesn't mean that it should stop you doing things. If anything, I'm trying to. Educate people that anxiety is, is a superpower. It is something that if you, if you manage it and you understand it, then it can, it can help you achieve loads of things. And, you know, put on top of this, you know, neurodivergency and there's a, there's a big, there's a big influx of this stuff now because of my wife. She works in Send and you know, it's almost like you're in the minority if you don't.

Alastair Greenerjust for those, just for those who don't know that special educational needs.

Joe RowntreeYeah. Yeah. And that's in, uh, in primary schools and secondary schools. So this is, yeah, neurodivergency, this is, uh, A DHD, autism, dyspraxia, dyslexia, all those things. And it's almost, you are, you are in the minority now if you don't have some sort of send need and. I think that's a lot to do with the smartphone, the generation we're in low attention spans also as well. I think it's to do with the fact that we've now got a language for these things, because growing up it was almost like you were the weird one or you were the one that just, you know, just needed to have time outta lessons or you, you are the, the twitchy one. I was always the one that couldn't focus, you know, and that's it. It never got picked up. Never got picked up the whole, the whole time. And I had to. You know, I, I used medication for 15 years to just shut up that voice in my head. Um, I wasn't, I wasn't sad. I wasn't depressed 'cause I'm quite an upbeat, optimistic guy. I just couldn't stop this, this thought process going on in my head. And someone said the other day, this is, um, a great analogy for A DHD. It's like, it's like being given an F1 racing car with bicycle brakes. And I can relate that so much because. If you understand how to ride the, the racing car, then you, you're gonna go off, you're gonna go, you're gonna go far, you're gonna go fast. But if you dunno how to handle it, then you're gonna get yourself in the right mess. So that right mess for me was,

Alastair Greenerso what I was gonna ask about the, the, um, parenting and, and, um, adults generally, because, you know, you talked about having a conversation, which I think everyone would agree is absolutely the right way forward. What about those situations where, and especially at teenagers teenage years, we know that communication sometimes is a bit more challenging. So how do you manage to have that conversation with a youngster who's not really wanting to have that conversation? How do you facilitate something the way you actually learn and you will make some progress?

Joe RowntreeI don't think I'm in a position to be able to give advice to other parents because I'm not on authority. I'm a, I'm a parent myself. And the only thing I would say is that I think that the strength of what you get from your children is that the strength of your relationship with them. It's like, you know, how much time do you invest in them? How, how, how, how much time do you just. Spend hanging out with them. You know, if, if you wanna know about them, you know, the worst thing you can do is say, you know, how's your day at school? How you feeling? 'cause they're not gonna give the answer then, you know, you probably wanna go out for a walk with 'em or, you know, go out shopping with 'em or take 'em to a, to a football game. Um, and I think one thing that I do sometimes is, you know, I say to my kids, you know, do you want me to help you or do you just want me to listen? And I think sometimes just listening. Without having any of the answers is the first step to them potentially opening up, because I think the more, what's the matter and can I help you? And the more sort of helicopter parent we are, I think that the more, more kids tend to, to back off, it's almost like, you know, you need, you need to, to catch 'em unaware and they just say it without even thinking about it. You have to, I, I find anyway, you have to be quite tactical if you want, wanna get anything outta your kids.

Alastair GreenerI like the, I like the answer, the, the, the, the question of, do you want me, do you want to help or do you just want me to listen? Because I think men in particular, but parents as well, generally, they wanna fix things. They want to make their, their, their, their child's life easier and, and, you know, less, less, um, less concerning and anxious for them. So. Just saying, actually, do you want me just to listen? I think is is some great advice. What other, um, sort of nuggets along the way have you learned that you have found have been really effective tools to help youngsters who are anxious or maybe just generally to bridge that gap between, you know, let's be honest, you, you're talking about millennial parents, alpha children or Gen X parents and Gen Z uh, children. Bridging that generation gap. What, what other kind of things have you found that work really well?

Joe RowntreeI think with all this stuff, there is no quick fix. Is there? I think you know the best will in the world you give. All the techniques, everything that you need to know about how to manage yourself as a human being is out there. We live in the information age, the techn technological age. You know, it's, it's, it's all out there. But the thing that we, I think don't do is, is take, take the advice and actually do anything about it. You know, the. Antidote to anxiety is taking action. And I think what I'm trying to do, so my generation growing up, we, we didn't have language for anxiety. If you felt nervous, you just got on with it. If you felt like any stress, it was just push through, push it away, push the feelings away. Which is the worst thing you can do with anxiety. 'cause the more you push it away, the more it stays. And I think what I'm doing now as an adult with two young kids is I'm, and this is the reason why I'm doing this and reason why I'm doing what I'm doing, is I'm having to learn the language and have having to sort of unpick a lot of the issues I growing up. And what I'm doing now is trying to educate my children. With all the things that I'm now using. So for example, you know, I, I tell my kids to breathe constantly all the time. And thi this is such a huge thing. And you know, you go into these sessions and you're getting these teenagers to breathe, you know, and they're like, they don't take it seriously and, oh yeah, breathe. And I was like. The other day, you know, we lo loads of us. No, I, I was never taught how to breathe popular, but I've been breathing all my life, mate. And it's like, yeah, but really breathe and really sit in yourself and, you know, why do we breathe? Because we, we can literally change how we feel. So with my, with my lad, uh, he's a penalty taker. He, he plays football. So for example, I've taught him the, um. The, the physiological side. So this is what all penalty takers do, and it's the, the quickest reset of your nervous system. This isn't a long term anxiety fix, by the way. It's just a really good one for performance anxiety. So I've done it a few times whilst I was talking to you, Alice wouldn't have even known, did it a few times just before I came on the podcast. It's two inhalations through the nose. It's one big and another little one. Then a long extended exhale. So why you do that is that the first one, it obviously fills up the the lungs. And when you breathe in through your nose, it releases nitric oxide and the nitric oxide, it opens up your blood vessel. So more oxygen goes in that little one at the end that just pops the alveoli at the end of the lungs. That just is a signal to your body that you are safe in that moment. And then the long extended exhale, that's what. Stimulates something called the vagus nerve, taps into our parasympathetic nervous system, which allows us just to feel really, really calm in that moment. So it's a really good one for taking a penalty. And you see all the, the top players doing this, and when you go into the workshops and you talk about Ronaldo and Messi and Chloe Kelly, you know that they do it before they take a penalty. They're like, oh, really? So it's just trying to introduce it in, in a way that they understand. And you know, as teenagers they, they just sort of want quick fixes. So, yeah, that, that's, that's one little thing. But I think the, the thing, the, the thing that really changed for me was when I was in my early thirties and I was really, really struggling. I had this voice inside my head, like I've already said, I couldn't shut it up and I was gonna try anything. Meditation, mindfulness, I thought it was a load of rubbish. I was like, yeah, meditation. It's just for old bald men in baggy robes and the. Chiming symbols and ringing bells and lighting candles that, that ain't for me. But I was desperate. I was gonna try anything. So I joined the London School of Meditation. It was free big house in Holland Park in London, and I went along and I was the youngest person there. And I would go and just sit in an empty room with a couple of people, a lot older than me. I called them the elders. You know, some of these people are in like their eighties, nineties. And I would sit on a chair, they would sit in front of me and we would just. Meditate. I didn't know what I was doing. I went back, kept going back and I was like, this is, this isn't working. But slowly but surely, I could see that I had a voice inside my head that the thoughts that were saying some horrible things, and I eventually started to get separation from them. I could almost see what they were doing. I could get distance from them. And I think as soon as you get that awareness between you and your thoughts. That's the first step to being able to sort of become free of anxiety. So yeah, it's just self-management through going into your body first, then looking at certain thoughts that come up. For example, a good one is, um, taking the thought to court. If you have a, a repetitive thought that keeps coming up, say, I'm not good enough. I'm not very good. Everyone's gonna laugh at me. You, you take the thought to court, you go, all right, okay, let's, let's put that under the microscope. Right? How, how true is that thought that you are not very good? Is it true? Is it a hundred percent true? And if it is, let's, let's try and find some evidence for it. And then you go, right, how true is the opposite? So I'm amazing at everything. Yeah. I never fail, you know, I'm, I'm perfect. How true is that? Let's try and find some evidence for it. Now. The, the middle ground is trying to look for something a bit more kinder, something a bit more. Compassionate that that would help you rather than, than hold you back. So with all this, Alastair, I think it is about awareness. Awareness of how we think, and awareness of how we feel.

Alastair GreenerThat's really, really helpful advice. And, and I think that's great. And actually, to be honest with you, that works across the board. Whatever age you are, you know, they're, they're useful techniques. I wanna finish off. Um, Joe, with just some advice for youngsters because you work with youngsters all the time, not just in the schools with your work, but just in your podcasts. And I've heard a few of the interviews where you've had some quite candid interviews with youngsters about their mental health, and I just want to ask what kind of, again, very quickly. Just a couple of things to say to youngsters. Um, if they feel they're being anxious and they feel that they're struggling to get that the words out, to have the conversation with parents, teachers, uh, whoever it is, um, what's, what's your starting point with those youngsters to help them voice their concerns?

Joe RowntreeI would say that it took me two years. Of keeping quiet and it took me 20 seconds of insane coverage to ask for help. So, and as soon as I did that, it was like a big pressure valve that that was released. So I would say talk to someone who you trust. If you can't speak to an adult, then there are lots of help Helplines, there's Kth, there's Shout, there's Anxiety uk and there's always gonna be someone out there. That wants to help you. And the only way that we can get any advice, or any help, or any support is, is through having the, the courage to just say, I'm, I'm, I'm struggling. And if the first person ignores you and you don't get what you want, then, then keep asking. You know, keep, keep just searching, because if you are already struggling, then you know, you might not have the. The, the power or the language to, to deal with it on your own.

Alastair GreenerThat's great advice. And, and I think if, if youngsters keep hearing that advice, you know, keep talking to people, keep the conversation going, whoever that conversation is. And, and even sometimes if, and again, ask what, you know, say, I just want you to listen. I don't want you to do anything about it. I just want you to listen. And I think that was some that, that's one of the things that's really stuck with me, um, from our chat today. Uh, some really. Great thoughts there, Joe. And I love hearing about your experiences and how you've managed to turn those into positive experiences to help others. We're gonna put all your socials in the, um, in, in the show notes so people can find you at anxiety uncovered. And we'll put all the other stuff there as well. And, um, you know, hopefully we'll keep on spreading the word and, and help youngsters to hopefully feel a little less anxious than they are right now. So, uh, thanks a lot.

Joe RowntreeBrilliant. Thanks for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Cheers, Alastair.

Alastair GreenerThanks Joe, and thank you for listening. And don't forget, we'll be back in two weeks time. See you then. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.