Kate Heathcote: Engineering, Parenthood & Life on the Generational Cusp

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths. Tackling stereotypes and share practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. Uh, today I'm joined by a very busy person because she is a millennial. Well, she's on the cusp of millennial and Gen X. Uh, she's a solutions architect. We'll find out more about what that means shortly. Uh, she's a wife, mother of a young toddler, and she's, uh. Basically trying her best to balance it all along, trying to find some space for herself. It's a great pleasure to welcome Kate Heathcote. Hello, how are you?

Kate HeathcoteI am good. Thank you. Nice to

Alastair GreenerThank you so much for being part of the podcast and given the fact how busy you are. Um, it's great to now, today what we're gonna be talking about is you as a Cusper mother and the fact that you've got this young toddler, you've been in a career in engineering and also just seeing the times and how they're changing and also your interactions, uh, with those different generations as well, and what you've seen change. In your industry over the years that, that you've been there. But I'd like to start off by talking about you being on the cusp, as it were. So, uh, you said, I can tell people that you're 42. Uh, so you're right on the cusp there between a millennial and Gen X. Where do you see yourself? 'cause it was quite a pivotal change between those generations.

Kate HeathcoteSo I, I have to acknowledge I haven't spent a, a huge amount of time looking at the ge uh, the generational differences. Um, but, but from the brief research I've done, um, I think. For me, the, the Gen X piece, um, around being motivated by value. That's something that has driven me quite a sig well, probably most of my life. Um, and also a lot of it about feeling value from myself, um, and, and valuing what I do, what I buy, where I go. That, that's definitely driven a lot of it. And I, I understand that's more on the Gen X. Side than the millennial Millennials, from what I was reading, seemed to talk a lot more about social networking, um, around um, sort of being more driven from, uh, things I could be wrong. Please correct me if I'm wrong 'cause this is just very brief review.

Alastair GreenerI think the easiest way to describe them is the. Millennials are really, they're very collaborative generation. Um, they, they clearly are more digitally active than, uh, gen Xs. But Gen Xs did learn it because after all, gen Xs were the generation when computers first started coming into classrooms and things. So they were the first ones with that. But of course, millennials were then the earlier adopters of social media and, and internet and and, and so on. Uh, the thing that really frames Gen X is, is their level of independence and their resilience and their, their incredibly, they have high levels of initiative and self-reliance. Um, but those, those are the kind of stereotypes

Kate HeathcoteYeah, I, I, I'm hugely independent or, um, and I'm, I very much sort of, I remember at school I was told I had to do a straight subject. It was math or music, and I went, no, I don't want to do that. I, I, I want to do something in between. And that's how I ended up in engineering, um, was through stubbornness, to be

Alastair GreenerAnd, and for anybody who's actually watching this on video, uh, they'll see that behind you. We can see a couple of violins because you are also indeed very musical, as is your husband. So, so actually you won in the end, you had both.

Kate HeathcoteYes, I got both.

Alastair GreenerSo let's talk first of all about you and your upbringing. You know, we, we've talked a little bit about some of the traits that you might have and where you see yourself. What kinda upbringing did you have? You know, typically, for example, you were brought up in an era where both parents possibly worked and, you know, there was, there was a lot going on, but you, your, your family life was a little bit different.

Kate HeathcoteSo, um, I had two sets of family effectively when I grew up from about. I, to be honest, as long as I can remember. Um, and I think they both had different visions of, um, how they wanted to see me grow. I, they both absolutely wanted the best, but it was interesting that they had different approaches in how to achieve that. Um, obviously the family I live with, I probably took more influence from, um, but certainly from my other family. Um. There was views on education, views on, uh, that you kind of had to get a good job to be successful, to be happy, uh, that side of things. So having, being quite driven from both sides of my family as I grew up, I think that definitely impacted, um, what I did and how I approached things as I grew up. 'cause I wasn't necessarily. Very academic to start with, but I became much more academic as I grew up. Um, and then I really didn't access Excel till I got into university. Um, when I found something that I enjoyed more, I think.

Alastair GreenerAnd what was that like at school? Because when you were growing up, you know, families that were different were probably less common than they are today. Where today, a child going to school, there will be a, a, a huge variety of home lives that people have. Where you might have been, some people might say you were a bit more of an outlier, um, at that time. Would that be fair or, or actually did, was it not an issue?

Kate HeathcoteI don't think it was an issue, but I think that's because. Um, school saw me with one family. Very few people got to see the, the other family and, and that side of my life. Um, but to me it definitely had an impact.

Alastair GreenerAnd how do you think that did impact you? What, because, you know, I'm a great believer that the way we grew up, the environment in which we grew up makes a massive difference. The way we are shaped and I think is the fundamental to generations as well, where that's the, you know, in my five circles of generational influence, that's the ultimate part at the end. You have the generation where you are and all those things, but ultimately it's, it's, it's your home life that, um, does, does shape you. So what did that. A impact have on you in terms of the traits that you have today.

Kate HeathcoteI, I think the biggest trait I recognize in myself is the need for validation. So I think, uh, for whatever reason, I dunno whether it's having two families or it's, it's being brought up in that era, um, but I have a very strong need to get. Um, approval and validation from others, and it's taken me quite a lot of my career to not be driven by, uh, pleasing others essentially. Um, and actually looking at what I want within my career and where I want to move into. Um, I do think. That trait has served me very well because I perform very well at work, um, and I'm noticed for that. Um, I will, I will, I'll do anything to sort of make sure we, we get over the line for delivery or we make, um, a good customer impression. Um, but it has its present.

Alastair Greenerdown, and that could be down to the way that, uh, you were being brought up. Or also that is a bit of a millennial trait as well, actually that collaborative, that team thing, that, uh, wanting to be part of something and, and, and so on. Uh, really interesting. Let's, let's get to towards your career of engineering, which again, when you were growing up, the perception. From some people is that engineering, in those days you were a bit more of an outlier if you were female, where today it's less so, would that be a fair a, a fair analysis of the situation or not?

Kate HeathcoteI think it's a fair analysis. When I went to university, there were 125 engineers and only 12, maybe 16 females to start with. There are only eight by the end of the course. Um, I think today there is much better, um, uptake within schools within all the, the stem work that is done. Um, and at university what I don't see is the pull through into, certainly I'm in quite deep engineering, um, so mechanical engineering, um, and um. Sort of physical engineering, we we're still not seeing the pull full of pull through of female engineers into that community. Um,

Alastair GreenerAnd that, that's particularly interesting because we, we hear all the time that we live in a far more accepting society that we don't have to perform along the stereotype. And actually one of the great things about Gen Z and, and Jen Alpha even more afterwards is the fact that whatever your gender, whatever your background, whoever you are, you can pretty well pursue any career If you work hard, you, you, you can do that. So why do you think that's not necessarily happening in engineering?

Kate HeathcoteI, I honestly don't know 'cause I. Think all the opportunities are there. Um, I think the, the companies are supporting, um, diversity in engineering. Um, I guess it's just a choice thing. It's, it is obviously not a career that, um, appeals or for whatever reason. And I, I think people are still trying to work out why that is and why there are skills gaps, um, expected, I guess at least with where we are right now.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and when we look towards the, the, the future engineers, the environment that you entered when you first went into the workplace, how different is it today for particularly female engineers coming into the workplace? Is it much different? Is it far more welcoming? Would it be a better environment for them?

Kate HeathcoteI, I mean. My company is incredibly welcoming to everyone. I think it, it really prides itself on doing that and supporting. I, I can't necessarily speak for other companies. Um, in terms of how, how it's changed, um, I'm not sure I ever really noticed being a female. Now again, that could be down to me more than anything. Um, in that I just wanted to work with the people I was. With and I wanted to deliver. Um, I know that's not the situation for other females in engineering. Um, and I suspect there are some interesting stories out there on, uh, people's perceptions. Have I witnessed problems? Absolutely. I mean, being called a secretary when I walk in as the lead engineer, uh, into a meeting is, is a prime example. That was Some time ago now that has changed to be fair,

Alastair GreenerI mean, you, so, you've got, so you've clearly we're very familiar with gender biases that take place and, you know, it, it, it, it's very similar, isn't it? That, um, you know, a male walks into a ward, they assume that they're the doctor, not the nurse, and things like that, which, which hopefully is getting. Better. But what about the differences in terms of generations? I mean, for example, was there a little bit of unconscious bias towards your generation when you first came in? That's hopefully a bit better now.

Kate HeathcoteI actually, if, if my view is that it's, it's probably got a little bit worse. Um, I think when my generation, when I came into engineering, we were seen as. I dunno. Um, very credible. We were brought in and, and that was, you know, we were brought through the steps. I think there's a view now that people are looking for a quick fix within their careers, that they want to just move into those senior positions without the, the, I think of the right word. Um.

Alastair GreenerWell, without having the experience that's required, and especially in, in something like engineering, you need feet on the ground, don't you?

Kate Heathcotesure that's true. Having worked with, um, I haven't worked with many of the, the latest, um, people coming into the workforce, but everyone I've met has been, you know, absolutely trying the hardest and they, they don't see that they need to jump up to the next step straight away. But I, I do think there is a general. View there that that this generation want to do that.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and you know what, when we look at perception versus reality, we see that conflicting evidence all the time, don't we? There's the perception touted, whether it be through media, through, uh, whatever other platform. Isn't necessarily the reality. Um, about, and, and certainly in my world of generational communication. What other misconceptions are there out there within your field of engineering about different generations?

Kate HeathcoteUm, it, it, I think there's definitely, um, this view that, um, the older generation, um, aren't keeping up with technology. And again, I would say that's, I don't agree with that comment either. Um, I think. The, the experience they have and, and the, they've been through a lot of change. And, and then that can be used to advantage and should not be ignored. And I think sometimes it's easy to just write off, oh, well, you know, you don't do AI development, therefore, what do you know?

Alastair GreenerAnd I think you've actually hit the nail on the head slightly there, especially within your field of engineering, because by virtue of engineering, you are looking for new things. You are creators of, of of incredible technology. So just because you've got older. That, why does that mean you're not no longer interested in, in what you effectively set out to do as an engineer? So yes, I, I can understand that sort weird paradox that almost exists that older engineers aren't looking for new things.

Kate HeathcoteYeah.

Alastair GreenerYeah, that, that's really just my, my, my father was an engineer and he died many years ago, but he was a mechanical engineer and he loved computers. He, he had them, you know, and he, he died in 2008, but he always had computers and loved them, and was, was, you know, he would've been loving today. He would've been all over chat GPT today, I guarantee it. You know, he, he would've loved it. So that, that I really liked. Your take on the industry of engineering and also the different generations in there. And it was quite interesting getting that extra bit about the, uh, gender differences as well. I wanna talk a little bit now about being, um, an older mom or a more mature mom, which even by today's standards, you're probably still a slightly older mother. We know that the. The various key stages of life are getting older, but you know, for being a mother of a young toddler at 42 probably is, you're probably one of the older mothers I would suggest picking up at the end of the day. Would that be fair?

Kate HeathcoteI mean, I certainly within the local community, I was the oldest person that I met. Um, generally speaking, um, I have met older mothers in, in toddler groups and, and this thing kind of thing, but, um, it, it certainly seems to be a little bit younger still. Um, but the media obviously is picking up on the older moms a lot at the moment.

Alastair GreenerYeah. And, and, and, and actually, you know, I did a podcast recently where we were talking about, you know, those key stages of life and that, you know, millennials and probably Gen Z afterwards will be reaching those stages probably later for a variety of reasons for you. If you don't mind me asking, was, was it a deliberate decision to leave it later?

Kate HeathcoteNo. Well, other than the fact that I, I didn't really think about having children until later on. Um, it. I dunno. It just didn't really even come on the radar for me or my husband, uh, until we were in our sort of late thirties and then actually thought, no, we'd really like to have a child. Um.

Alastair GreenerHmm. And, and what, what kind of, um, attitudes are you getting? What kind of, um, reactions are you getting from people? Because, you know, 30 years ago that would've probably raised a few eyebrows where I am. I'm hoping that actually these days, no, not really.

Kate HeathcoteNo, I, I don't think, um, apart from maybe my own family, um, uh, I don't think anybody is. Made us feel like, made me feel like I'm too old or that we are too old as a family. Um, if anything, people have been very supportive.

Alastair GreenerThat. Yeah. That's great to hear. So let's talk about your family because obviously, you know, everyone makes comparisons. Whether we like it or not, we can't help it and most generations don't approve of the next generation's methodologies. When it comes to bringing up children, that's nothing new. How has that journey been for you?

Kate HeathcoteUm. I think my biggest comment around being a mother in where we are today is that it's really hard to find community. I don't live that close to my parents. Um, we, we tending to do it, um, quite on our own. And yes, there are lots of troubler groups, there's lots of people out there and I joined NCT and, and all that side of things. And I have, I do have community, but just as a general observation. It's quite hard to come by unless you specifically go out and find it. Uh, I think the, the support there is is challenging. Definitely challenging, and a lot of, there's a lot of talk about will support you, but in terms of action, I think, uh, it's, it's hard to see that action. and and people building communities to support each other. And I think for me, if there's anything that can change generationally as we go forward is that community site comes back for families who don't necessarily have local community support or family support.

Alastair GreenerThe suggestion that I've heard is that we generally, as a society are becoming more individualistic, which some might read as being a bit selfish and a bit more transactional about things. And for me, I, I think the jury's still loud. What you are suggesting would imply that perhaps that might be what you are experiencing.

Kate HeathcoteUh, yes.

Alastair GreenerOkay.

Kate HeathcoteI, it, it is tough. I think, I think I'm in quite a privileged position because I have a reasonably paid job. Um, I have a house, um, that side of things, but I imagine if you. You don't have that stability behind you. It is very, very challenging at the moment.

Alastair GreenerAnd what about at work? Because again, we, we hear lots of prejudice, um, towards parenting at work in terms of, you know, you're gonna want time off. You're this, and there was that era where actually female employees might not have been taken on because of the fear that they might then wind up having, you know, just having three children in a row and not working, but being on maternity pay or so on. There was a quite a negative feeling towards that. How has your company been and what's the general way of the company towards parenting?

Kate HeathcoteYeah, I, I, again, I think my company's very good. I, I think it supports, um, parents to the. as as much as it can within, you know, we've all got constraints within companies. Um, I, I still think it's a more, a wider challenge. I, I certainly aware of quite a few groups that are championing better conditions, better support at work, um, and not overlooking, um. Individuals with families. Um, I was in a very privileged, again, privileged position probably 'cause I've been at the company for some time and have quite a good network that I was actually apply, able to apply for a new role just as I came back and, and the company supported that and supported my ambitions. But again, I'm sure that's not true of every, everywhere out there.

Alastair GreenerWe hear quite a bit about, um, organizations and, and some organizations being brilliant in terms of setting up crushes at work and doing all sorts of things. And, and you were suggesting there that as a society perhaps we're not looking out for each other enough. We're not being as supportive enough as we could have each other. And certainly if we go back, you know, when we hear all the negative things about Victorian Times, the one thing they did actually do was they would, they would. Pick out the staff. They would have their own medical facilities, they would have their own schooling facilities and things. So perhaps we're going full circle. Do you think there's a, a role without, not necessarily talking about your company, but other companies and, um, organizations that you are aware of your, um, other fellow mothers, uh, are with, is there a greater role you think, for organizations to do something and be part of, of helping mothers?

Kate HeathcoteYes. Short answer. Absolutely. Um, I think there's so much more that can be done. Um, but how that's initiated is definitely challenging. Um. Yeah, it's a big topic. Okay.

Alastair GreenerBecause one of the challenges that we see, and, and we were talking a little bit before we started the recording, about the, I don't wanna say the state of the engineering industry, that makes it sound terribly dramatic, but we were talking, you know, about this need to bring in. You know, bring back people who are older because there's a bit of a war on talent at the moment, and I'm wondering if that war on talent trying to get talent in that actually that might be a driver in terms of getting better child facilities in the workplace because actually it's the only way they're going to attract the right talent.

Kate HeathcoteApologies you. I didn't quite hear the end of that question.

Alastair GreenerNo problem. So I'm just thinking in terms of the role of the company these days, when there is this bit of the war of talent, that we are short of engineers and that we need this talent perhaps that the offering more support for parents could actually be a driver to bring in more talent.

Kate HeathcoteSo I think there are companies that are picking up on this now. Um, I am aware of companies that specifically target. Supporting parents back into the workforce after a period or a break, um, and then retraining that way. Um, and, and I really, really support that approach. Um, definitely. And I, I think we could see a lot more of that. Um, and I know some companies even go as far as it's actually providing, uh. Time to those people within the working week, uh, to support their family alongside retraining, alongside getting back into things. So I, I think a lot more companies could, I'd encourage them to take up on those types of programs and see what other companies are doing out there.

Alastair GreenerI can certainly see that happening when there's a lot of pressure at the moment with the cost of childcare going up and up and up, that, you know, maybe an alternative, there's an alternative solution out there. Um, just wanna talk briefly before we close about the different generations in the workplace that you see. As a millennial, okay, you are a customer, but as a millennial you are so often seen as the bridging generation. So first of all, how do you get on with the younger generation? What are you observing with the younger GE generation coming into work?

Kate HeathcoteUm, so. I haven't done that much specific work with younger generation. Um, but just from a sort of general observation, I think there's a lot more, um, focus on valuing yourself, valuing your needs within the company and, and your progression within the company. Um, I assume that extends to valuing your own, um, elements within your life as well. And I, I really. Admire that trait. I admire the ability to be able to do that. 'cause it's taken me some years to get to that point. Um, and I think the earlier people can do that, the more they can drive where they can provide the best support within a company, and actually the company will get better results from that individual because they value what they're doing. Um, so for me, I, yeah, I, I think it's a good trait and I would like my daughter to have that trait.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and, and how about the, the position of you being in the middle, because in many respects, you are caught between the senior leadership team of the organization and then the, the youngsters coming in. What's the relationship between you and older, uh, members of your company? How, how, how well do you get on with them or what are the, some of the challenges maybe that you have?

Kate HeathcoteAgain, this might be a company thing, but. Um, we have a very, very open, uh, communication channels within our company. Um, so I'm speaking to, uh, senior level honestly all the time, and I don't see any sort of blocker there in, in order to do that. And that really should extend down, hopefully into the younger generations as well, that they feel they can talk to any level within the company to either on well. Get the information they need. Um, where I do see a challenge is that, and and this could be specific to engineering industry, but we have a bit of a skills gap, um, just above where I am, um, until you reach into the sort of more senior level. And, um, it's, there's going to be a period where quite a lot of people are gonna retire and then there's gonna be this big skills gap. Um. And somehow my, my generation need to figure out how to deal with that and and how to make sure it doesn't cause chaos, I guess.

Alastair GreenerYeah, the I, because you do hear anecdotally that sometimes, you know, you're getting younger and younger and younger people in management positions who sometimes it's suggested. Don't value older members of their teams and what they bring to the table and how important their experience is because the younger people may, some of them may see them as being superfluous, that they're old fashioned, they're out of date and actually don't really understand the value that they can bring. Clearly you're suggesting that doesn't happen in your company, but is that something that you are aware of on a wider level?

Kate HeathcoteYes. Um, there's, there's still, I mean, I'm sure it happens in my company. Um, there must be pockets of it, but this view that, um. Those nearer nearing retirement. Um, can't keep up with technology trends aren't interested, don't want to learn about the latest sort of developments part, you know, ai, for example. I, I think that's totally untrue. Uh, I think once you're an engineer, you're an engineer and you're always interested and they will keep up with the latest trends and they are worth. Absolutely listening to talking to, um, to understand where the pitfalls are and try not to recreate those pitfalls as we move forward. Um,

Alastair GreenerYou know, I'm going to re, I'm gonna re-look at some of the data in a survey that we did in 2024 and we looked at generational, uh, preferences in communication. And one thing we did see was that the amount of older people who were early adopters was far greater than people might have thought. What I should probably go back and see were those engineers who were that, uh, versus oth o other trades. Um. And finally, Kate, I just want to ask you a little bit about some maybe tips or hacks that you have for people who are interacting with you as a generation. So first of all, what would you say to Gen Zs coming into the workplace? If they want to get the best possible relationship with you as a millennial, what should they do?

Kate HeathcoteWe're on the spot. Um.

Alastair GreenerAnd I am gonna ask you, by the way, the same about the older generations, what

Kate HeathcoteI, I think it's the same answer for both, to be honest. Um, for me it's, it's about finding commonality. So I think the beauty of engineering is we mostly are working on common goals. So we're working on a common project, we're working on, um, a common objective and it. You know, almost generational gaps disappear at that point because you're working towards a, a common area. So you bring the teams together, um, to work towards that goal. And I think as long as working with, well as a millennial, I just wanna see people engaged in that goal and engaged in, in focusing on sort of the common, um, area or, or. There's a word I'm looking for, the vision that we're trying to achieve. Um, and I think that's the same when working with, um, older generation. It's again, it's, it's just, you know, support that vision, be supportive, be helpful, um, and, and help us understand how to achieve it. Um, and. and. Be open to working together, not just kind of saying just your own views. I

Alastair GreenerYeah, it, and I, and I think that hopefully as time goes on and certainly my mission is to actually recognize that the differences between generations, uh, doesn't need to be any size whatsoever. We can easily break down those bridges and those barriers. I find it just a bit of a fun question for you. Um. . So finally, Kate, what would you say the best part of being a millennial is and what might be the most challenging?

Kate HeathcoteUm, so I think the best part, I, I quite like. The fact that I am extremely keen on collaboration. I like working with people and as you were saying earlier, it is, we sort of sometimes bridge that gap. I think that's really, really helped me, um, in my career, but also at any stage of my life. So I appreciate that trait. Uh, in terms of challenge, I think for me it's that, um. The need for validation, the need for, um, approval from others and learning to, um, not make that, uh, my sole focus and to focus more on myself and, and the, and my values. That's

Alastair GreenerKate, it's been a real, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. You've given us some really valuable insights, what it's, you know, into your world, which is what this podcast is all about. Just opening people's minds to, you know, people from different generations and different sets of circumstances. Uh, so you've done a brilliant job with that. Um, really appreciate it. Thanks for being on the podcast. Uh, really, really big, big thank you.

Kate HeathcoteExcellent. Thank you, Alastair.

Alastair GreenerAnd thank you for watching or listening wherever you get your podcasts. Uh, we really appreciate it and we'll be back again in two weeks time. Thanks for listening. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.