From Police Officer to Role Model: Keith Fraser on Authority, Identity, and Youth

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair Greener. Hello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger. Intergenerational connections today, I'm really excited about our guest because he's someone who's got a unique perspective on generational communication. Uh, he's the chair of the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales. Also the Chair of local partnerships and chair of the Local Chairs Forum, so it's great. Pleasure to welcome Keith Fraser. Hi Keith.

Keith FraserHi, Alastair, great to, great to be having a chat with you today.

Alastair GreenerWell, thank you for joining us because as, as I said in the introduction, you do have a unique perspective of generational communication and I, I want, wanna start off, if that's okay, as we always do, talking about your generation and, um, you are a, uh, gen X. Also a little bit of a cusp because you're close to um, boomer as well. But we won't go into too much detail on that. But can you maybe just give us an idea, first of all, do you think you are typical of that latchkey generation growing up and so on? How do you see yourself as a Gen X.

Keith FraserGood grief. I dunno if I'd describe myself as, um, as a latch, as a latch key. I'm not quite sure about that. And am I typical? Um, I don't know is the answer to that I'll enough to let everybody else, um, after they've heard what I say? Um, an answer that question. So group in a very supportive household, mom and dad, dad. Mom stopped work to be at home and look after me. Dad carried on. Carried on working. Uh, dad was a bus driver. Mom, um, was a secretary of stroke business support, stroke clerical supporter up at British Leland, for those of us that are old enough to, to re to remember that non work. My works there are very skilled in that, in that, in that area. And those skills have, I suppose, have translated on that so that what we now know is the computer, but it was all around the typewriter. I don't, I think there's probably a lot of people around who've never seen a typewriter. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I feel very lucky in the environment that I was, I was brought up in, um, grew up in Birmingham, um, in a place called Bourneville. And I found there was a very, very strong community spirit in, you know, through the school and also local area. Lot of the kids lived nearby. A lot of my friends lived nearby, had family nearby to me as well. So I think I was very, very lucky in relation to my childhood Melbourne. So I was, latchkey didn't, I couldn't stick my hand through the letter box and open the back door or the, or the front door. But mom was always about if I needed her and so was, and so was dad. And I know

Alastair Greenerthat was actually the,

Keith Frasergood experience.

Alastair Greenerno, that was the difference really, between the boomers before you and the younger Gen Xes is, is was that thing that both parents were very often working and that was the big transition. So you had probably a, a, a more traditional childhood in that respect. The fact that, um, you know, your mum was at home and, you know, growing up in that period in, in Bourneville, what was, what was that like?

Keith FraserUm, it was probably a bit, now looking back at it, quite unusual, but it was my, uh, but it was usual for me. 'cause Bourneville is quite a, quite a green place really, in the middle of a, in the middle of a city. I had, um, my both junior and infant school, as they used to be called, um, don't really look like schools. There are bills that are built by the, um, Cadbury family. The Cadbury family were very much around trying to make sure the environment was right for the. People that lived in it. So there was a lot of parks in the in the area. I remember playing racing boats and I mean racing bits of sticks that were boats on the way to school. With my dad, every now and again, I've always wanted my dad to take me to school because he would be the one who was a little bit more playful with me going to school. Her mom's not gonna see this, by the way, 'cause she'll tell me off, but he was always a little bit more playful, taking me to school. We'd do some games on the way into school, whereas mom was very focused on making sure I got to school on time and, and getting me in there. But dad would always have a bit of a game with me, or we might detour through the park so we can, you know, play some games in the park and stuff like that. Or if we'd snowed, we'd have sledging all the way. From my door almost to, you know, to the, to school if it snowed. So I used to love it if it snowed, 'cause dad would basically drag me all the way, not face, face first, by the way, on my feet, all the way to school.

Alastair GreenerHow strict were you? You, you were implying there that your mum was a little bit more strict than your dad, but would you say it was a fairly, um, strict straight upbringing or was it a little bit more liberal?

Keith FraserGood grief, um, blind me. Um, just difficult ones, difficult one to answer. I think. They not think they were, they were very, um, precise about what was right and wrong, and they were very. Clear on expectations around me, around behavior, but my mom, and probably more so my dad was very gentle in relation to how he pushed my aspirations and that got stronger as I got older in the whatever I achieved, he was always telling everybody else I'd done the next level. So like for example, you jump on a bit when I got into policing, you'd always tell. Everybody, I was a sergeant when I was a pc, and so that subtly got me to kind of go for the next rank, and he'd do that all the time. Unfortunately, the, the next ones he said, oh, what, he didn't actually see me achieve that rank, although I did achieve that rank. But he's, he's up in heaven now watching, watching Dan, so hopefully he knows that and knows that I got that. So, yeah, extremely supportive, uh, drove my aspirations in a very subtle. In a very subtle way, but a very, very, very supportive way and things I wanted to do in the future that were very, very supportive of. Like I'd wanted to be a police officer from when I was a very young kid. I know that are lots of young people haven't necessarily kind of formulated their ideas, but from the age of about nine or 10, I wanted to be a police officer, and the first time I applied I was 14, so I was very kind of committed to it and I got a brilliant response back from the home office as well, a personally written letter. Encouraging me to apply, giving me some advice and tips and also information, and so I used that to guide myself through school and also in relation to what I attained so that I could actually get that job.

Alastair GreenerNow policing, as we all know, has changed tremendously over the years, um, both internally and externally. And I I wonder if a 14-year-old Keith Fraser today would get that same response from the home office. Yes, it might be a WhatsApp message or an email, but I wonder if that would still happen.

Keith FraserUm, I'd like to think so, but perhaps not because as we think, well, I think what we are thinking through now is how to become more efficient and more effective around how we do things. And my hope is that through that efficiency and effectiveness that we want to do, you don't forget the human being. In that, because that's the kind of golden platinum nugget in all of this. How do we remember the human being in all of those contacts? Because potentially if I didn't get that letter back from the home office, I might not be sat where I'm sat now, where that person took that time. It wasn't a long letter, but they took that time to make an individual response. If you've got AI or a computer, they'll see us on 14 and it will just be a straightforward. Reduction by the computer says no. And, and that's it. So I, I'd say I'm probably less likely to receive an individualized human, human response, although some would argue and say the computer's trying to get you a more individualized computer risk response. But I think it's something that a human being can do that, that AI and human and, um, computers can't necessarily do, although we're trying to perfect that.

Alastair GreenerSo you, you were an, an only child, you were brought up in, in this sort of environment. How do you think that shaped you in your later work in the police and also as the chair of the Youth Justice Board? How much of a benefit do you think that upbringing gave you when you then went into those areas of work?

Keith FraserYeah, I wasn't an only child. I was an only child up until about the age of 11. So I've got two brothers. I'll have to give them a bit of a mention or I'll get told off by them as well if they. Get the, if they're fortunate enough to listen to me on, on this. Um, I think what it's done for me looking back has been, uh, it's seen, it's shown me the gaps. There are a number of children's lives, unfortunately, where they haven't, where they, there's things that they can't take for granted that I take for granted. IE that there is somebody there that is always gonna be looking out for them. Responsive. I had trusted adults in my life. Constantly, I had adults around me that loved me. I had adults around me, and that's not just my mum and dad, it's the wider family as well, that, that supported me and a very strong family network. Now looking forward, I could see by the, the amount of children's lives that I, that I impacted in a professional way that wasn't the case for, for everybody. You know, for example, I would think about coming my dad coming home at the weekend on a Friday, and he'd always have a treat for me, but I had to search him to try and find out, to try and find which pocket that that treat was that treat was in. Now, there's a number of kids that if they make choices, their choices they make are totally, totally different to mine because whatever choice I made, I knew in the end I would be okay and I'd be happy. But some children just didn't have that and don't, and still have that opportunity about being able to make those choices, which support them in relation to having a, you know, in relation to having enjoyable and, and better and better lives. So it did help me because it showed me the basics and the fundamentals that we, that, that we all need in our lives. And some of these things now the state and also society and communities can do. And they don't cost money. But unfortunately, I don't think there's enough emphasis in relation to government's objectives and the state's objectives and ours on those things that don't necessarily cost money to actually bring about some quite significant changes.

Alastair GreenerWere you aware of any of this growing up? Could you see that sort of inequality growing up? And do you think that's the, spurred you on a little bit to go ahead and did what? Do what you did?

Keith FraserI don't think it was more around seeing the inequality. It was more around my parents and, um, how I saw them giving to Com communities and wanting the best out of. Communities that that was a thing that spurred me into what I'm, to what I'm doing now initially and mother talking about policing and stuff. 'cause we had family in policing in, in Jamaica. So I hear quite positive stories around what they would, you know, what they were up to in policing in, in Jamaica. So I suppose, you know, having parents who gave a lot and give a lot to the community and didn't expect much back. Then a positive, you know, uh, stories about policing then spurred me on to, you know, into a career in policing. But then it's only once you are there and exposed to policing and the things that I do now that you become more aware of those, those inequalities and the, and the way that people are, uh, are treated differently sometimes because of obvious difference and sometimes because of difference that you. That you can't see. And those, and, and it's, it's frustrating. It makes you angry and if, but it makes you also more determined to kind of do something about it because one, it's wrong. But two, it's just ridiculous that people treat each other in that way because it's, it's, it is inhuman and in effect, but also it doesn't support us in relation to having the best society and the best community that we could, that we can have.

Alastair GreenerThe way that we communicate now is so different. I'm not just talking about the obvious technological differences, but just. Attitudes and so on. And certainly when we think about, you know, the police interaction with individuals and police interacting with youngsters today versus the way that police interacted with youngsters when you were, um, a, a, a teenager. Could you talk maybe a little bit about that and how you see those changes and more importantly, you know, framing it in the perspective of those youngsters and the, the police themselves.

Keith FraserI think there's a co couple of things going on. There's, well, there, there's two things going on simultaneously. I, in the communication with you perhaps saw more police officers out and about on on foot. So you, um, had greater interaction with them? I'd have to, they'd have to be tested out before the police start to say no. There's more of us out there. But there's kind of a general feeling, but I don't think that feeling's changed actually, that you don't see enough police on the street in interacting with, with the community. And that, that's always been even for when I was back there and, and doing the job. But to answer your question around. Around that communication. I think there needs to be, still needs to be a greater focus on that and greater focus on the police and, and neighborhood policing. But the challenge for policing is it's got more complex. So a society has got more complex. The, the ask of police has got more complex and as, and there's some real tensions there around policing, being able to meet that neighborhood policing demand, and having local police officers. Out in communities where, where I think it's absolutely critical because that there's nothing that beats that face-to-face communication. We might get more effective and more efficient through the different means of contact, but nothing beats that face-to-face. Human interact, human interaction. The science will, science will support that. I am not sure if I quite answered your question there. If, uh, I am just thinking now I've, whether or not I've answered, you, answered your question. Um, go on.

Alastair GreenerI think, I think what's interesting is, is, is is that it, a lot of it's always about perception and you know, when you talked about the amount of police on the street, there's a perception of something and the reality might be different, but it's, it is that perception. Looking at your work, um, how did you get involved in the youth side of, of, of, um, communication and looking after youth and youth justice? How was that transition and how much have you seen a difference in all those years you've been involved with it?

Keith FraserI'll start off with the last question. How much have I seen a difference in relation to children and youth work? Since I've been involved in it, I, I think we've got a better understanding now. We've become smarter about what we need to do. We become more joined up. We become, we, we work together better. You know, when I was first involved in this area, for example, in policing, you had all these silos of different parts of the system doing, its doing its bit and thinking what should we be doing in the, you know, around children and around the justice, justice system. When you had the act that came in in 1998, it forced. Various statutory partners to come together and work together, and I think that's been, we've seen a significant benefit there as a result of those statutory partners working together. I think one of the things that we've got, although we've got better at working together, that working together is reduce the number of children coming into the system. We got better at preventing children from coming into the system, preventing harm. To children and also to communities, and also to victims. But one of the things that really, I'll use the word shocked, shocked me was the concentration of vulnerability of, in the youth justice system. So the youth justice system wouldn't, isn't necessarily, although children do bad things, I'm not going to say that they don't, and they'll do things that are wrong. I was shocked and really surprised at the concentration of children vulnerabilities in the justice system, and also the over-representation of various different groups, whether it be children from ethnic minority backgrounds, or children who are care experienced, or children who have speech language and communication needs. Children who have mental health needs, substance misuse needs. I was really shocked. At the concentration of of children with vulnerabilities in the justice system, that's not excusing the behavior. Nothing I'll talk about will excuse the behavior, but for me then it then really gave me some real strong evidence to say, well, the solution to what's happening within the justice system and the things that kids do that are wrong is not necessarily just with the justice system. It's before. Because if you're looking at speech, language and communication needs, if you are looking at kids who have been excluded, overrepresented in the justice system, children from minority communities, um, overrepresented children who, um, have mental health needs, that looks for me to health, education, social care sports and protective sports, and physical activity protective services. All of those agencies and others should be doing more to support the positive outcomes in In children's, in children's lives. And there seems to be evidence there for me that kids are slipping through the, slipping through some gaps. In relation to what? In relation to the decisions that adults are making that then lend them more likely, not inevitably to come into the justice system.

Alastair GreenerYou, you touched on something there in terms of almost slight. Positivity that we're able to identify better. We've got organizations working together better, so we're able to identify issues. And one of the things that, um, you told me when we had a phone call beforehand was about your diagnosis of dyslexia and the fact that it happened quite late in life. Where nowadays I think it's pretty universal that it's identified pretty early. Is, is, is, is that your take on it and what, ah, maybe not. Okay. So what, what is your take on that? A, if it's not been identified, why not? What's going wrong and what impact that's having on our young people? The fact that it is often identified earlier.

Keith FraserOkay. Two things. One, one I'll talk about from my perspective. First of all, I was, you know, I knew that I had some challenges around spelling, reading and, and writing. I always knew that I just didn't understand what was driving that, that challenge. So I'd do all sorts of courses and stuff like that to kind of mitigate and manage it. And I found all sorts of coping mechanisms and it wasn't until in my mid forties I won't go through the whole process. Now it's actually found out what was, what was wrong with me in in inverted commas, and two things happened. Then when I found out that I was dyslexic, one, it was kind of reassuring because I now understood what was going on, but also number two, it was quite scary as well because I now had a disability as far as everybody else saw it. And who was I going to tell about it? What impact was that gonna have on me as an individual and how society viewed me and how I was able to carry on doing my job, despite the fact I was a senior cop at the time, doing an okay job. I think all those things then went through my head and initially the focus was around reasonable adjustments. Quite rightly, that's what an organization does. It provides those reasonable adjustments. I think the real significant shift was that I met somebody called Professor Amanda Kirby, who then spoke to me about, um, the, the strengths that you've got, you know, as being somebody's neuro as well as the challenges. Spoke about the strengths, and I really did see myself differently then as, as a result, and then understood how I was able to do what I was doing. Now in relation to identification, you're talking about children. I think that, you know, you've got, looking at about 20% of the population are neurodivergent in some way. And it's not just one box. I've probably got another bit, which I don't know, you know, in relation to neurodivergence, I'll have to test that and find out what, what that is. ' cause you're on a scale really, but about 20% of the population is neurodivergent. We're identifying more and more. Children that are neurodivergent. But, uh, I think it's the ability of the state to ensure that children are systematically tested and, and I don't think we, we are doing that. And then if they, if children are, then are we able to deliver the right response? Those things are getting better, but I think it's how does the system cope, cope with actually meeting a need, which we know is there already. In relation to, 'cause the science will tell us there's about 20% of the population neurodivergent. But those kids and children are still slipping through the net because either they're not identified and they're not identified until they get to the justice system or the edge of the justice system. Or they're identified and there's not then an appropriate response. So things are getting better, but we are not, we are not there yet. There still needs to, I think. An increased focus on there because there's, there's wasted opportunities there. And also we are potentially creating harm for children by not dealing with, dealing with their needs.

Alastair GreenerAbsolutely. And, and one of the things that we know is that children from the work I do in schools, children are that much more aware of each other than they ever were. And therefore, if something isn't diagnosed, it seems almost more unforgivable than ever before because we are aware of it, we do know it's out there. Therefore it seems so wrong to, um, not identify it. Where do you feel the relationship between schools and the various bodies that you work with and parents and supporting parents in helping them? Because I, I personally feel that being a parent today is, is a tougher job than it's ever been in history. Life is so much more complex. There's a lot more going on. What do you think can be given to parents to give them more support? What's the role? Is the, maybe for the state or for schools or, um, for other bodies to support parents in assessing their children and helping their children through those early years.

Keith FraserI think, I think it works. Works both ways really. I think there's one is how can we support schools and teachers more, because we all know that. To give kids a bespoke education and, you know, built on their learning needs is the, is the right thing to do and the best thing to do, but have schools got the resources, have teachers got the resources to be able to do that. So you need to look at how you're supporting teachers to do that. Then also I think it's parents trusting their gut. Trusting their trusting what they feel and what they can see in their children. They know their children better than anybody else. I would, I would suggest. So if they can see something before the, you know, has there been any kind of formal diagnosis is about asking for help. And then the second piece of that for me would then be around the authorities listening. You know, I spoke to a mum not too long ago whose child was diagnosed, is now a young man diagnosed with autism. Um, when he was about 13, 14, but she'd been trying to get help from the age of about two or three, and the, the system was actually disputing what the mother was saying the child's needs, needs were. Yet the mum was saying, look, I'm spotting this difference, but the state, what, you know, the schools weren't seeing that difference, but the kid was just masking his behavior in, in effect, and behaving differently in order to cope in those. Sit situations. So I, you know, for me it's, it's one around the parents who's really trusting you, your, your, what you can see in that child and, and looking for support and help. And then two, the other bit is around schools really listening to parents. But I do recognize that when I say to schools, listen to parents, there is a resourcing and a capacity and a capability issue, which needs to be tackled by, you know, on a wider level, read through. Through the education department, et cetera, just in making sure that schools are properly equipped to deal with that, to deal with that need.

Alastair GreenerDo you think there's a bit of a challenge with some maybe older generations? Not being as receptive to the challenges of today as maybe they could be in terms of, you know, when you hear comments like, you know, what's going on with mental health, there was never that when we were young and you know, those kind of unhelpful comments. Do you think that is a real issue or is that just a few headline grabbing moments?

Keith FraserI think, I think it's a real, it's a real issue and I, I could understand why it's a real issue because a lot of the, um, a lot of the channel say like, around mental health or neurodiversity, we just didn't have a label. To attach to it if you're going back a few decades. So they, this, it wasn't, it wasn't understood and people either got on and muddled on and would push through, or if you were, what other people would label as, you know, as, as I wanted to use some disparaging words that come to mind, but. You were not up to it, then you were pushed to one, one side, and that might lead to premature hospitalization, for example. Or you've been put into some kind of institution or society just discarding you and saying that you couldn't do anything. What we've now seen is because we're able to understand what's happening to human beings in relation to the mind a lot more. Yeah, our response has become more flexible, and I think that is right. So I think that what you're saying is absolutely spot on. It's understandable, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's necessarily forgivable. I think we need to be a little bit more caring, a little bit more compassionate, and a little bit more under understanding of each other because the number of children and these children I'm talking about are now adults. That, you know, as I've mentored and all the rest of it who've gone through the justice system, the thing that was often missing in their life was somebody who cared and asked 'em what was happening and what was going on, and why did they feeling this way, or why did they behave in, behave in that way? Now, the attitude that you are talking about, just response to behavior and what people can see without trying to gain that gain, that understanding, gaining understanding, does not cost money.

Alastair GreenerYeah. And, and one of the things I talk about, I mean, the, the purpose of this podcast is to help people hopefully have an insight to a world that they might not be familiar with. And so much of that comes down to communication. And, you know, we, we've literally scratched the surface of it today. But one of the things I, I want to really finish up on is just your take with your experience with, um, the youth justice and so on, that so much is down to communication or lack of it. What do you think we can do as just the general public to improve that communication between generations so we get less misunderstanding and hopefully less people who have to wind up in the youth justice system?

Keith FraserI'd say number one is to. Recognize that we all stereotype and we all, and we all have, we all have biases. Number two is to challenge ourselves and our beliefs and why we are thinking in that way. And number three is just to reach out and have that conversation with others and don't think that they're not going to get it. Don't think that somebody just because. They are older isn't gonna understand and be able to communicate with somebody who's younger and vice versa. Don't think that somebody, because they're under 18 isn't going to get it. I'm absolutely gobsmacked. So I can tell you that when I go into a talk to young people that are under 18 and their grasp on what's going on out there, what they want for themselves, their understanding of society, and what's going on around them. It is absolutely phenomenal. I'm blown away by the intellect if I'm being quite honest. And some of those young people are in the, in the justice system that I've, that I've spoken to. But people, they say, they say that people do not ask them those questions. They don't ask 'em the why questions. They don't ask 'em, what do you want? Questions? And the same will go for people who are older as well. There's a lot of knowledge in older people. Don't write 'em off. Also, if they're walking a little bit slower in front of you, it's because their bones aren't able to move as, as quickly as, as yours can. So be a little bit more patient. So the, you know, the final thing has just been a little bit more tolerant in questioning if you are trying to other, anybody question why you are trying to other, anybody, whether or not you are a younger or older or older person. Because it's very easy. Once you put them in that other box, it's very easy for you to write them off and just carry on living your life.

Alastair GreenerI wish it we had more time because I would love to discuss more the, your, your concept of the other box. I think that's an, an amazing concept. Um, but Keith, it's been an absolute pleasure. Um, is there anything you want to just finish off with it for anybody listening today? And they want to improve their communication. You've already said, be curious, listen, all those kind of elements which are so important to effective, uh, communication when it comes to youth justice particularly, is there anything you would like people to know that might overcome a preconception that they have?

Keith FraserFor you, justice. . We are looking about 430 children. That are in this, what we call the secure estate across England, Wells 430, and then about half of those, only half of those have been sentenced. The other half of those are roughly, approximately on, on remand and haven't been sentenced. So you look in about 200 children plus ish that have gone through the courts and have got some sentence in the system. So for me, if you look at those numbers, it's absolutely doable in relation to preventing those children coming into the system or stopping them from coming into the system. And then when you look at the number of children that have been arrested, you're looking at just under 60,000 a year. Again, those numbers, comparatively speaking, when you look at, compared with the number of. Over 18, I mean, under eighteens that you've got across England, Wales, again, they're comparatively small numbers of children. So with some focus around understanding what's going on for those children in their lives, it's doable in relation to prevention. And there's some key things around, um, around preventing, it's around having a trusted adult in that, in that child's life. And how do you build. Trusted relationships with that, with that, with that child or or that child or young person. How do we not respond? Just respond to behavior, but we try and understand behavior. How do we not be quick to punish, but we're quicker to try and understand? And so those are the things that I would say is that we need to move towards. And there's not one thing that I've said as well that says we ignore the behavior. 'cause quite often people will play this game and along the line, play the game. Are you hard or soft around this? It's not about being hard or soft, it's about focusing on what works to get to support children to have better outcomes for their lives. Also to stop fewer of us becoming victims of some of the crimes that kids. And young people perpetrate and all of us to have a, have safer, safer communities. So it's not about hard or soft, anybody that's trying to have a hard or soft argument that isn't something that's gonna have a sustainable future for fewer victims and fewer communities. 'cause we can't lock everybody up and lock them up indefinitely. That that is, that it just isn't going to, that isn't going to work at all. And the evidence doesn't support that. It is around following the evidence around around what works really. And that's why I'd like us to move more towards the justice system and bits that interact with the justice and focusing on the evidence around what works. And we move away from this debate around what's hard or soft in relation to approach. If you think about the riots that we had, I think it was last year, there was a disport and they were in various parts of the, um, north of the um, country. A disproportionate number of children were arrested, but a disproportionate number of those children not had any contact with the justice system at all. So how are you gonna label those kids? What are you gonna do around those, around those children? I'm not gonna give you an answer here, what I'm saying, society needs to, um, kind of question, what was it? Why were those children in that situation at that time and then had no previous contact? With the justice system.

Alastair GreenerI think you've given us a huge amount to think about today, Keith, and that's actually one of the things I wanted to achieve out of today was to get people to open their eyes to what's going on around them so they have a greater awareness. And having a greater awareness is the beginning of a greater understanding. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you for those incredible insights. And, uh, we'll, we'll put some links on in the show notes. Uh, but in the meantime, Keith Fraser, thank you very much indeed. Really appreciate your time today,

Keith FraserThank you for having me. Really appreciate it.

Alastair Greenerand thank you for watching or listening. And don't forget, we'll be back again in a couple of weeks time. Bye for now. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.