Dr Stacy Moore: The Psychology of Generations: Resilience, Risk & Reward

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. My guest today is an experienced chartered psychologist. She's a trainer, clinical supervisor, and professional speaker on wellbeing. She advocates for compassionate management styles to improve employee engagement and customer experience. So welcome Dr. Stacey Moore.

Dr Stacy MooreThank you for having me.

Alastair GreenerWell, you know, we, we were at an event in Birmingham earlier in the year, and I saw you speak and I thought, this is someone I've gotta get in my podcast because you've got so much to offer, especially in the topic of mental health, which is so big at the moment, and we're definitely gonna get into that, and especially youth mental health. But I'd like to start off talking a little bit about you and your background and who you are. You are an zenni, which means you're on the cusp between being a millennial and Gen X. How does that feel? Does a, do you like the label Zenni, and do you think you're typical?

Dr Stacy MooreI thought you were insulting me then. I was going about that. Um, Zal, um, I think I, I tend to identify more with Gen X than, um. The millennial generation. I, I think, but I, under, I get it. I understand why that is the case. Why there is the need for this slightly, um, protracted, um, generational gap, um, to, to describe it slightly differently than, than just Gen X. Um, I know that we are of a generation where we have largely grown up with, with technology and computers. Um. But I think we were still very much, and I was just thinking about this, um, we were of the generation where we would write things and then we type it up in neat, or we, we had a bit of, a bit of the Gen X stuff as well as the new, the emerging technology. And of course for us, emerging technology was things like having teletext or having a dot matrix printer and one computer that was real done.

Alastair GreenerFor anybody under 40, we'll explain that later. You, or you can look it up.

Dr Stacy MooreHonestly, so that the extent of our tech, when we describe it as tech, now I can imagine my kids would say, that's what, what is that? So, yeah.

Alastair GreenerBut what's really important for people to understand is that as, as Gen Xs were incredibly adept at dealing with all this new technology that came along, you know, they were fortunately young when technology was in that emerging stage of computers and so on, but they've learned a huge amount in their lifetime, and actually they're a lot more agile than people often, you know, give, give them credit for.

Dr Stacy MooreYeah, I, I, I can imagine in a lot of cases, and, and, and for me, I, I'm very aware of this, this. Speed at which I can get used to new technology. It doesn't happen automatically. I have to still go through that first gear of understanding, well, how does that relate to the analog world? You know, before accepting that there is a more efficient way of getting something done. I need to understand how it works. Um, and I'm still very much a paper diary person, so putting everything, I go through the, the writing it down and then copying it over to the calendar, which is not efficient at all. But that's where we are. That's where I am.

Alastair GreenerWell, I'm afraid to say hands up. I do exactly the same thing. Um, I have both versions, but it, it, it is interesting when you look at the, the way different generations approach things. And of course, I'm always talking about that we're framed by a generation not defined by it. Meaning that, you know, these are just patterns which are useful to look at. But one of the things that really creates that. Pattern in somebody is the way that they're brought up. So tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What was life like growing up?

Dr Stacy MooreYeah, so I am, uh, Brumi, um, shout out to all the Brummies out there. So I was, uh, born and raised in, in Birmingham, in the suburbs of Birmingham. And, um, born to Jamaican parents. Um, had my Jamaican grandparents around a lot, and ex and extended family, uncles, aunts, cousins. Um, and that was, I mean, it was a wonderful upbringing for the most part. Just thinking about that. You know, I think bridging that gap between, um, British culture as well as Caribbean culture, a real kind of nurturing environment of, um, just thinking, you know, the world really is your oyster. And, you know, having windrush generation grandparents who were adults when they came over and then sent for my parents afterwards. So my parents as children were left with their, with their grandparents in Jamaica. And then they came over, um, after my grandparents arrived in the UK to backfill those jobs with the NHS. Um, and also Landro, my granddad worked for, for many years. Um. And so growing up in that environment I think was really nurturing, but a real awareness of geographically different places as well as geo, as different cultures and those existing and coexisting together was, was I think a real defining thing for me growing up. Having both and that kind of adding to my identity as opposed to, you know, creating any sort of confusion.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and it's, I always think that when we talk cultures, you know, there's a very different culture that your parents would have experienced, especially being brought over as as young children and then bringing you up. When they talk about the way they've brought you up and the way that you bring up your children. What are some of the key differences that you've noticed in the methodologies, and obviously that's generational, but also cultural, because you will always have that cultural heritage.

Dr Stacy MooreYeah. Yeah. So general, I think I've tried to instill quite a lot of the ways that they raised me and, and my siblings into, you know, into my own, own children. I think having quite, um, I think having standards, having quite high standards is something that I would always advocate for, not just. Um, in terms of academia or, you know, what you might do at school, but having standards with, with how you conduct yourself, how you, um, how you, there's a phrase in, in, in Jamaica called, um, brought up sea. Um, so those who are Jamaica, you know, you have to have brought. So when you are going into a social environment, when you are stepping outside of your home, you're not only representing yourself or you are representing your family, you're representing your generations, you're representing. And I suppose that, that, just saying it out loud now that sounds quite weighty, but I don't, I don't, I don't see it as that. I see it as, as representing yourself in the best way possible. Um, in, in the

Alastair GreenerI think there's a lot of people who would say we, there's that, we actually need a lot more of that. Um, because it, they, you know, the word traditional values sounds, again, a bit weighty. It, it, you know, it, it has a lot of connotations, but you know. In, in a world where we've become more individualistic, it's the me, me, me, me world that to actually hear people think about other people think about how their, their behavior is impacting on other, on other people is, is probably something that a lot of people would welcome.

Dr Stacy MooreYeah. And the fact that you are representing others, and you know, for me, I've very much always been aware of the sacrifices that my grandparents made, and I just kind of think, imagine being in your twenties or thirties and. Flying halfway across the world and you've never been there. You've not seen even much video footage. 'cause there wasn't any of them at the time. You've had letters back from people, you've not spoken to anyone. Like what's it really like? I just think that's, you know, that that was an awesome, um, thing that they did. And I think when I. Now here in the UK representing that lineage, I have a, a, a, it sounds really heavy, but there's a duty really to continue that legacy because of those sacrifices that were made and that massive leap that was made to try to change the trajectory of their lives, um, at the time. So, yeah.

Alastair GreenerAnd what about your children? Because when they're interacting with other, other children in their schools, you know, the fact that they're second generation and and so on, you, you've got a lot of very clear principles that you like to instill in them. How are they interacting with, with other children and, and how do you see the difference between the way they are? School compared to with the way that you were when you were at

Dr Stacy MooreYeah. So yeah, to highlight some of the, the differences, I think, um. I think that, I think that there's more of an emotional awareness of, of this generation, I think, or emotional tolerance or acceptance rather, um, more than tolerance so that, you know, if, if my children are feeling in any way, um. You know, to me it might feel, seem quite irrational. Their behavior about, about a particular, oh, this thing the other day about conquerors. My youngest one is collect some conquers and we were running late. He needed to connect the conquerors. He knew in his mind why he needed these conquerors. It was for a poster. He was quite passionate about it, and I think I was more willing to explore and be curious about that emotion than to be. I suppose more inclined to shut down the emotion or to prioritize my own needs at that point for, you know, efficiency or whatever else we needed to do. I think that perhaps I might be a little bit more patient in engaging with the emotional, um, landscape that my children bring than generations before. And I, and I, I understand that that is a privilege. Thinking about, you know, where my, my, I, myself and my brother were the first of our family to go to university and actually go and get into jobs that were more professional jobs than, than my parents had been. Went through the, you know, the more vocational routes, so I understand the financial pressures and, you know, social pressures that, that may, that would've been there for my parents, that aren't necessarily for me and, and my siblings having. You know, gone to university and grown up and working in more professional roles from an earlier age. Um, and so I can see that now over the generations because of that change in perhaps social status over the years, actually, that has afforded us the time to be able to be a little bit more patient and that accepting of the emotional landscape that our children bring.

Alastair GreenerAnd it is also very societal as well, isn't it? You know, I, my theory is that roundabout this of early eighties. There was a, a major shift when we went from an adult centric society to a child-centric society where children became a lot more empowered. They had a lot more decision making. You know, I was watching something on TV the other day when someone was thinking about buying a different house and while they were gonna go back and talk to their kids who were four and five at the time, where, you know, yeah, exactly. You know, no, you are coming, you know, would've been an other generation's approach.

Dr Stacy MooreYeah.

Alastair GreenerDo you think that, you know, do you think maybe we've given them a little bit too much decision making, um, availability or, you know, where do you think that balance lies in terms of empowering children but also recognizing that they are still children and that you are adults and you have to set the tone, set the example, you know, and, and I think we seem to be in a position where we're juggling with that balance at the moment. Where, where do you

Dr Stacy MooreYeah, it's a tension, isn't it? It's a really, really, um, nuanced balance. Between giving too much leeway and, and not enough. And I think it, it's never stable. It fluctuates depending on the day, the temperament, the mood, the, the tone, and, and that's the, the sensitivity that we have to have. I think that that, that we have to have that sensitivity to, to, to, to question ourselves and, and, and be curious about. Is this about? Is this about me and my ego of, well, I, they need to do what I'm saying because it's easier for me? Or is this about me creating a situation where I want my child to be resilient and think. Well, they can't always say, that's what I want and I'm gonna get it exactly that way. There will be a point when a child needs to, you know, needs to be told no because, you know, we've, we've got longer living experience. I do remember justifying to my elst, who's 12, saying, you know, well, why, why do we have to? Well, I've been alive. I've been alive 40 plus years. You've been alive 12. So actually there's a little bit more wisdom and experience in me understanding what you are talking about. Um. So I, I, I think I can't give a definitive answer. I think you're right in that sometimes children are given, um, too much. Uh, this is, I don't want it to come across in a way that, um, I'm saying that children shouldn't be given agency, but they're given too much inappropriate agency, particularly when we know there are certain things that are harmful for them, such as, you know, the access to social media, not just on tap, the access to gaming on tap. I'm not saying anything's wrong with those things, but it's how we punctuate and carve up that time to make it. Not harmful, but adding to their experience socially. Um, so I think there are times when we need to just, I suppose, toughen up in terms of what we are going to suggest to children, is the, the the right thing to do because we are the adults. Listen, but also be mindful, you know, that, that there is something that we may know more about than children as a reason why we're saying what we're saying.

Alastair GreenerAnd that's gonna be a balancing game that we're gonna continually play, um, all the way through because at, at, at some stage, children will need to conform because that's the way society works and where those boundaries, and also of course, that children's brains aren't fully formed until they're in their twenties. So there's a lot, a lot going in there. But actually, I wanna get onto your work because this segues really nicely. In into that, you know, you've obviously got a, a tremendous amount of experience dealing with mental health and psychological issues for, um, adults and children, but we were saying just before we started that you, you find that actually the majority of your work is with children. What are you seeing now? What, what's the sort of trends, if you like, from when you first started this? You know, we've got a generation growing up. You're probably now dealing with generation Alpha as young children. What are the kind of differences? What are the trends that we're seeing in your world?

Dr Stacy MooreYeah, so there's certainly. Over the last 20 years as a, I've been a psychologist, there's been a shift to, I think more acceptance of neuro neurodiversity and neurodivergence for sure. I'll say that. Which then leads to, I think, young people being far more understanding and tolerant of each other and their differences. Not saying all the time, but I think there is a trend towards there being a tolerance of it not being something to be ashamed of and hide away from. Actually something that within that process with our adolescence of identity development, it's something to embrace and find a way to describe and navigate as opposed to something to hide away from. Um, there's certainly far more, um, children that I've been, and young people that I've been working with who, um, meet the criteria for diagnosis of A DHD, um, as well as those that meet the criteria for diagnosis of a SD. Now there's arguments as to are we just better at identifying these children or actually is there something else going on? And that, you know, there's an argument back and forth within the research about what there is. But I think there is, um, you know, we, we are far more attuned to noticing those distinctions and differences in, in children, young people now. Um, and we're having more of those conversations. And inevitably when we start normalizing having the conversations, there will be more young people and children who are able to, um, express themselves and describe their experiences, um, uh, more easily. Um, so I think as I work with all, all chunk children and young people, not just those with special educational needs and disabilities, I've given a response that is about. You know, a neurodevelopmental landscape, but also a mental health landscape too. Um, there, there's, there's always been a high level of, um, mental, mental ill health, um, within cities in particular. Um, just thinking about the pressures that come along with being in cities. I, I live in London. It's, you know, it's inevitable that with the pressures of, of daily life and living in a city, that will will happen. But I think there are additional pressures on young people that weren't there in, in the past. Um, this culture of always being on, you know, I was from the generation, I was speaking to my children about this only a few days ago. They were talking about what an old style phone looked like, and, and my artist said, oh gosh, it was hard work, wasn't it to call a number? I thought, what you think? It was hard work. He said, well, each number, you have to remember each number. And if you get to a certain point and you've forgotten it, you then have to go back because you, there's no record of it on the phone. Then you have to physically move the dial around. It's really interesting that they're noticing that. You know, that, just go back to the difference between phones having a phone. When you are always on, you're carrying around all the time, as opposed to there was the house phone. If you can't reach me, you can't reach me. Call again later. And so just. Always being available, always being on, I'm sure is adding to this current landscape of additional anxiety that young people are feeling, um, and stress ultimately.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and, and there's also a big debate about when it comes to young people, 'cause there's no question that I think even the most skeptical people would recognize, the pressures on young people is far greater than it's ever been. And the job of teachers and. Parents and, uh, university lecturers, it's harder than it's ever been before because you've got a bigger cocktail to be dealing with. But where do you sit on that balance between, hey, that's just part of growing up. We all know that when you reach adolescence, there's a multitude of things going on, self-identity and um, just that growing up. But then there's the point where actually they might need a further diagnosis, they might need further help. How do you discover that? Balance to get that sweet spot where you actually really identify what's going on.

Dr Stacy MooreYeah, so. The part of my work where I work with, um, young people, tends to be within schools, tends to be within those, um, those institutions as opposed to, you know, young people coming to me directly, you know, outside of that particular, um, environment. And so I think it's about, and this is why my business is called Inner Circles. It's about thinking about the, the. The circles that exist around that young people and the protective factors that may well be present within those young people. Um, and those may well be, you know, their small peer group, their family group, their, what's happening within the school environment, within their year group, what's happening within the wider context of the school, what's happening in the community, just down the periphery of when they leave school and go into the environment outside of the school. And so. We, we generally would be looking for, looking for protective factors that can ensure that the young person is not experiencing, um, suffering really, that is not experiencing challenges that are impacting on their daily, their day-to-day life within a school context. It's about their level of progress that they're making, towards the outcome that are set within, um, within school and within colleges. Um. And so we can make that identification of, well, if there is a very limited progress, we, we go through a plan, do review cycle. If over time when we make some suggestions, we do some assessments, we make some recommendations around interventions. If over time we're noticing that they are still struggling. Even if we are activating some of their protective factors on those different LE levels, then we might think, well, what else is going on here? What? What do you think? Maybe this is not so much a temporary situation, or it could be temporary, but the interventions we've got available to us are insufficient. We now need to think, well, what else could be helpful? And that's when we go out to the kind of wider community thinking about, um, cams or other organizations that may be able to support that young people and be, and that might be through them receiving a diagnosis or, or not. Um, and so it's the pervasiveness of these difficulties. We all have difficulties time to time, but the thing we need to be really mindful of is, well, for how long is this going on for? And to what extent is this impacting on, uh, a person's quality of life? And that goes for young people as well as with the adults that I work with too.

Alastair GreenerHow do you respond to the skeptics who say, actually by talking about mental health all the time, by, you know, taking, you know, looking after kids and whether it be therapy, whether it be diagnosis or whatever it is, that actually we are fueling the, the whole issues and that children are maybe. Playing up to it and just attention seeking and so on. And we hear that a lot, and especially from people, my generation, uh, probably who don't understand the pressures that young people are under today. How do you respond to that kind of attitude?

Dr Stacy Mooreit is really hard. And of course working with the parents and grandparents sometimes of these young people working with the teachers, that narrative is, is, is very loud. Um. And I think we have to go back to the research. I have to bring them back to the research to help them to understand that, you know, we need to look at the cases of where we don't do something about it. We need to look at, you know, how if we are thinking about mental health, you know, ultimately suicide, those figures are, are going up. What, what's the, what's the ultimate that we're trying to prevent against? We're trying to prevent against harm ultimately, and. It's when we take a step back and think, well, how do young people get to this point where they are, you know, the point of wanting to take their own lives or not see a way out, or, you know, be so depressed or so anxious that it's massively impacts on the quality of life and we have to listen to those narratives. And I think it's all right coming from a position of privilege where you kind of think, well, well, I, I, I was able to suck it up and got on with it. And it's like, well, you unfortunately, well, fortunately you are not them. And so it's, it's very important to, to unpick things when we don't talk about things, it's not that they disappear, it's just that they become worse. They become far more entrenched. There are lots of subject matters where we can kind of think, well, we just don't talk about it. It doesn't exist. It's like, well, no, it does still exist. Exist. It festers and it. You know, it turns into something else. It becomes its own form of cancer, really just forming and mutating. We have to open that, that box, that Pandora's box, and really explore what's going around, what's going on. And it's only when we do that, we can start understanding what other things that really make a difference between someone being well and someone being unwell. Um. So I think I, I challenge that argument to say, I think it's actually quite socially irresponsible knowing what we know about mental health now. All the research that's, that's happened to say we're not going to lean into it and we're not going to utilize it to save lives and ensure that young people are growing up to be a functional next generation, which is ultimately what we want.

Alastair GreenerAnd you've almost answered the, uh, the follow up question there really a as well about those who, who say, as you implied there, well, this didn't exist in my day. What's going on? You know, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're just making it all up and things. And I think you've pretty well answered that, that, you know, actually it was there. And also we're in a different world.

Dr Stacy MooreYeah. Yeah, it very much was there and I, I would invite. People of who, who make those comments and there of all generations, because there are some young people that, oh, just, just plain up to it. There are some young people who do feel that way. Um, I, I think it's important to invite them to, to think well, accepting their point. Well, yeah. That, that could be true. But say if it wasn't, say if they're not, what, what then what do you think you're justified in just leaving them to it? Um. And I think there's also the argument to say, well, we have left those young people to it for a while. There is always a period of them having no input, no treatment, no talking about it. How did that work out for you? How did that work out for them? When we just just leave them to it, just push. ' cause ultimately we do try that when we are thinking about how we, how we meet people. To, um, support them through assessment. There is a period where they haven't had any sort of input. So how did, how did that work? We could still do that, but there's your evidence.

Alastair GreenerYou've done a fantastic job at clarifying and stuff, demystifying this whole world of, of, of mental health and one of the challenges that all of us are aware of, certainly here in the uk and I suspect worldwide, that mental health charities and. And, um, various sort of professionals in that world are being stretched. And in an ideal world, you know, somebody listening to this or watching this would say, okay, I'm gonna bring my child, uh, or I'm going to refer someone to Dr. Stacy Moore because she'll be able to, um, you know. Give a great, um, analysis of what's really going on for somebody. What sort of tips can we finish off with that we can give to maybe parents who either don't have access or they're waiting for access to be able to get through this minefield of, of, of mental health, trying to understand, trying to support, but also at the same time trying to keep things into perspective. Do you maybe have a few tips of what people can do in those situations?

Dr Stacy MooreYeah, it's, it, I mean, being a parent is, is tough. And I know that I'm only 12 years in on my journey. Um, I have a 6-year-old and a 12-year-old. But I, I, I get it. And I think the first thing that, um, I would encourage, um, parents to do is, is to give themselves some grace. Find a space where they can be extremely honest about how they are feeling and the frustrations that they're going through, not directly with their child, um, who may be also be struggling. But to have that support network to be able to say, this has happened. I feel awful. And admit what's, what's coming up for them. Because ultimately there is a part of ego that will be at play there. Like I feel like I'm failing. After all I've done for them. They're still not getting it. To unpack that. So find a space for yourself, and it might seem very selfish, but I think that is the first port of call to try and regulate yourself as, as a parent, through having conversations and and gaining community. Secondly, I think also giving yourself grace to think. Your children may not want to speak to you. There was a time when we were the most important people in the world, um, to our children. We go into adolescence. It, it's not, they are more inclined to be developing social networks and that's where they're getting their social understanding from. That's where they're getting their learning from and getting their input from. Um, that is entirely normal. It is nothing about you. Um, it's. It's phase and it, it, it's developmentally appropriate. Um, I think finding pockets of time to do things with your children, um, your adolescent, um, children that are non-confrontational because it's in those moments where certain thoughts can come out as opposed to the direct conversations of all, tell me what's going on. Often they don't know what's going on. They can't articulate, they haven't got the language to actually describe what's happening for them. But finding neutral activities whereby you can be alongside your child, not face to face, but alongside where you're doing something, where you can both contribute to, even if they're contributing just a little bit. Those are when over time, those are when you know the, the comments might come out, um, and reminding them. So giving them the, the, the, the capacity to, to hark back to situations that they've been in, where they have been, they have been experiencing joy, they have been accomplished, they have shown they're competent and confident. Um, indirectly giving them reminders of those times to help them to, um, to connect back to that version of themselves. And I think finally. Listening is, so you might think, oh, that's very, very trite. But, but the amount of conversations where, where I'm in consultation meetings with parents and their children, and I see that they haven't actually heard each other, there hasn't been that active listening happening, that acceptance, because we so want to protect, we so want to stop anything further happening from them. But there has to be that period of really engaging with where they're at. You know that, that, that thing of them saying, you know, I, I feel awful and I wanna end it all. No, you don't. You don't. Unhelpful. We have to really lean into it. It's painful. But we have to lean into what they're saying and, and give them the space to explore why they might be feeling that way, even if they don't know immediately. It's not your job to fix it. It's your job to be that real stable anchor alongside our young people as they advocate, navigate this really, truly, um, challenging world that we've, that they're being raised in at this moment in time.

Alastair GreenerI think that last line summed it up just perfectly. Stacey, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. You've given us some really valuable insights. Actually, I can't wait to go back and listen to this again and, uh, you know, get all those tips again because it was literal. Packed with some really good practical advice. So thank you so much. And we're gonna put your socials and your website for inner circles and things in the, uh, in the, in the show notes so people can get hold of you and contact you and find out a little bit more about your incredible work that you do. Thanks for being a brilliant guest. It's been a.

Dr Stacy MooreThanks for having me, Alastair.

Alastair GreenerThank you and thank you for watching as well. All listening. Whichever way, uh, you get this, uh, podcast and we'll be back again in two weeks time with another guest. Thanks a lot. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.