Neuroscience, Curiosity, and Removing Workplace Drama

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. My guest today specializes in removing the drama that stifles innovation. Her unique approach helps dynamic leaders and teams to boldly communicate and operate with clarity. She achieves this by leveraging deep expertise in neuroscience to identify and rewire limiting mindsets, translating complex brain science into simple actionable strategies. This elevates team performance and delivers measurable, extraordinary impact for the client's organization. So I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Alison Blacker. Hi Alison.

Alison BlacklerThank you for having me.

Alastair GreenerYou know, I love the different topics, uh, that we're gonna talk about today, and I'm always fascinated by neuroscience. I think it's something I would've loved to have done more on, at some stage, but I've learned a lot through, uh, through my book and the research that I did for the book. But first of all, let's start with you and, your generation, you are a Gen X, you are sort, should we say, the more mature Gen X rather than the younger Gen X. But that obviously does frame you a little bit about who you are. Do you think you are typical of your generation?

Alison BlacklerI think, I think I am. I think my fierce independence comes from. The way that I was parented and what was going on in the world. So they talk about the, the latchkey kid, didn't they? You were letting yourself in, you were walking to school yourself. You were out with your friends doing whatever you wanted to do, uh, without parents really being aware of what was going on. So I feel that for me, my strong get on with it kind of self-reliance comes from. That, uh,

Alastair GreenerAnd a lot of those, a lot of those qualities are, as you say, very, um, familiar for, for Gen Xers and the fact that they became such great problem solvers and have that level of resilience as well. And just before we started recording this podcast, we were talking about levels of resilience and how that manifests itself. And, and it what was really quite interesting, we were talking before about, you know, the impact it had on you and we, we never underestimate with the impact of childhood, which is such a key part of what makes a generation. And that was particularly important for you, wasn't it, the way that you were brought up.

Alison BlacklerI think so. I think one of the things that I like to talk about and help people see is where we can make sense of the impact. So instead of being stuck in the problem, you know, so like for me, while I am fiercely independent, you know, there was, there was definitely a lack of emotional support. You know, people didn't talk about problems. You, you know, I was often told, you know, we'll talk about this when we get home. And then never did. So nobody sort of came where you look at the gen younger generations today, they're very used to talking about problems. So, it was good and it had its challenges. But for me it's being able to go, oh, that's why that's like that. You know? So you don't have to necessarily dig into all of the way that you were parented and and judge your parents for it and criticize them. They did what they did based on what they knew. But when we can sort of be more aware of that, I think it just massively takes the pressure off. And allows you to be able to move forward. Plus it helps people be able to look at the good stuff that came out instead of the not such good stuff. So when I realized how independent and, and determined I was, and I know that came from the way that was parented, I, I took that, I took that as a, a skill

Alastair GreenerYeah, I love that positive slant to that. You know, just make the most of who you are and, and who you've become and, you know, capitalize on that rather than focusing on the other. How do you help people to focus on the right things rather than the things that probably aren't helping them?

Alison BlacklerYeah, and that is, uh, it's a trait of humans' brain. We do tend to focus on the things that haven't gone so well, and we can then rewrite the story, which is what most of us do. So what we actually believe happened, we end up rewriting it that many times that the story. Gets worse or we, you know, our interpretation. And what's really interesting, if you ever spend time with people who both describe their reality, which it's their reality, they're, they're describing a different set situation. And that's what any conflict, any drama situations, people are doing that. But what I like to help people do is to be able to look at whatever's gone on without judgment. However you were brought up, whatever people said to you and whatever you then believed about yourself, let's try and find the things that are worth having, if you like, that are useful. So for me, it was realizing how independent I was that that could see that as a strength rather than be stuck with the feelings and the thoughts that you've got that don't serve you. So for me, it's all about what's not serving you and what's serving you. Let's lean into the stuff that's serving you. 'cause the rest is just past, it's gone.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and tell me a bit bit about the clients you have, who you work with.

Alison BlacklerSo I work with individuals, so generally, um, quite ambitious individuals who want to spend sort of six months. So you're really looking at what's going on. So I like to do, do a much deeper dive for them to get the results they want. And then I also work with teams or groups of leaders, exec teams, again, helping them understand themselves so that they can communicate differently, so that they can lead well, so that they can be more successful.

Alastair GreenerAnd what are you seeing generationally? So for example, if you're working with, um, an individual or team who are generally older versus those who are younger, what sort of differences are you noticing between them? The way they deal with issues?

Alison BlacklerSo I think the thing that I have noticed, and this is where I got really interested in this topic as well, hence me using it as my TEDx, uh, topic was we are. Again, it's a human trait, but we are very quick to to, to judge and, and jump to assumptions. So we make an assumption a very quick, and, and the brain uses them as like a filter. We are likely to just very quickly judge somebody based on age. So you'll hear people sort of say, oh. You know, that young, that younger generation, they, you know, they're lazy, they're entitled, they don't know what they're doing. Or conversely, the younger generation are saying sort of things like, oh, you know, they, they don't really know what they're talking about. Or, you know, they're not, they're not very forward thinking. And while there is traits of truth in, in the way that we see each other, and that's normal, we leaning into the, the. The challenge if you like, instead of the possibility is what I like to talk about. So getting people to really think about, well, what are they showing you? You know? I mean, for me, the younger generation where people, so some people are seeing them as lazy and entitled. I think they're putting a mirror up. I actually think they're putting a mirror up to the older generations who are very resilient, which is great, but also pushing on. Working late hours, you know, trying to do things differently. And I, and for me it's about being really curious about all of that. And I think that's where the, the, uh, success is.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and what's going on neuroscientifically when it comes to making judgements about each other, what's happening in our brains at that point,

Alison BlacklerSo the brain is a, a certainty making machine, and it's also a, as you'll know, and it's also, um, a threat response machine. So when we are built. When we were built, we were built to survive in the jungle, and now our brains are still trying to do that in social situations. So from a neuroscience point of view, I can. I like to help people see what could have triggered it. Um, and often it is a threat response, but it might be to do with how much clarity you've got. It could be to do with whether somebody's given you enough autonomy, enough freedom within what they're asking you to do. It could be whether it feels fair. So some of the neuroscience has actually given us a way of being able to process that immediate response. That fight, flight of freeze response to be able to process it so that you can then again go, oh, okay. It's just that rather than it be something that you've made up. 'cause it's not that at all. You know, even when somebody just looks in a certain way across a room can be perceived as a threat, they're unhappy with me. I like to help people understand that because I think then we can just take the pressure off and then respond more responsibly. I can talk about the, um, the limbic system. That the immediate response is like the fast train and the logic is like the slow train. So, you know, you've gotta, you've gotta do something to help the slow train pull into the station. Uh, and that's the bit that you can make a massive difference for people.

Alastair GreenerAnd one of the things a lot of people talk about is this thing of, you know, it's taken us, you know, thousands of years to become who we are as individuals. A lot of people are saying, oh, it's the world we live in. It's changed the way we think it's changed. Um, you know, our DNA almost, but my understanding from other people I've spoken to in this space is actually, that's not really the case.

Alison BlacklerNo, I mean, the way that we respond, the, especially the immediate, you know, the way the brain is, is organized, if you like, with the immediate threat response versus where all your, uh, information is and all your beliefs and all your patterns and programs and, and, and your emotions. That's the same. That that actually is, is still running in the same way. But, but I think the way that the, the world is, is impacting on us. And I think it's actually getting harder because I think we all have got more to look at. We've got more potential threat. We've got the whole of social media, which is a potential threat to the way that the human brain is wired. And every single thing that pings on people's phones, it could be perceived as a threat.

Alastair GreenerYeah. And it's, isn't that interesting? So effectively we are, we are dealing with ourselves as effectively prehistoric man, but we're having to deal with modern technology and, and what our natural reaction to that is.

Alison BlacklerYeah, so that's all seen as a social threat. So where we used to be, it used to be a physical threat in the jungle, you know, we've, I mean, it's, it, it, it's got more legs than that. But I think I, again, think it's helpful for us to understand the relationship between the way that we're all wire. So the way that that prehistoric wiring is there and then, and then the way that each of us is wired and each of us is wired based on what's gone on. So this topic, how we were brought up is in there, uh, along with lots and lots of other things that have as ever happened to you because, you know, the people don't, people forget that the subconscious mind remembers everything. Ever happened to you? Like every single nuance. Everything. Everything a teacher ever said to you, everything. Not just the things you remember, everything and it's all in there and it could pop up at any time.

Alastair GreenerNow given all of that, how do you use that, that knowledge that you have and that deep understanding neurologically, how do you use that with your teams to break down those generational barriers?

Alison BlacklerSo for me it's a, a, a massive awareness piece. I genuinely believe that 80% of making any change is being aware of what is going on. So what is going on for you? And then. Once you've understood that, you can then understand that something different may have happened to the other person or other people. Because what I always hear people say is they know that everyone is different, but when the pressure's on and there's stress and there's extra work or there's deadlines, everyone forgets that everyone's different. So then you start communicating or start doing something in the way that you think is right. And of course all your other people are different. And that's where I think from a team perspective or a leadership perspective, or I like to work with middle managers often who've been promoted because they're good at the job, but they don't know how to lead people. So they then end up being not the great technical person anymore because they've now got four people to try and look after and they're not happy because they dunno what they're doing. So being able to kind of. Look at that piece around differences and, and as we said at the beginning of this conversation, you know, having that light understanding of why that might be the case. You know, why, you know, if you've been parented often gen my generation were parented by quite strict parents. You know, you were, there was a lot of, you've got that wrong type of speaking. Uh, you will have, uh, a different way of approaching. Potentially authority. You might feel somebody's telling you that you are wrong and that might have a huge impact on you. And from a leadership point of view, you can lose people's attention or, or capacity for, for days by what, what a leader has said to them. But it could be that it's just triggered their stuff. So, to answer your question more succinctly, to help people understand. Where their behavior meets somebody else's. And then if it's not working, how can we tweak it? So can we think about how we set something up? Can we, you know, if you, if you're a leader and you say to somebody, can I have a word? Like some people will literally panic. Because you are the authority. Oh my goodness, what's that gonna do? But that does stem from people's parenting. 'cause some people won't see that as a problem depending on what their experiences were. And it's not just parenting, is it? It's what we, what was going on in the world when we were having those formative years.

Alastair GreenerWhich of course is entirely generational. Um, and yeah, this, this all blends in perfectly. One of the things that I talk a lot about in previous podcasts in my book and articles and things is about management and how management I genuinely feel is probably harder than it's ever been before because there's greater expectations on management. There's, uh, a far more diverse work. Place in, in a multitude of ways, not just in terms of gender backgrounds, but generations and so on. How do you help managers? Because you know, you touched on it there before, that many people become managers because they're great at their jobs. They're not necessarily people. Management is the right amount of money and resource being put into helping those people become great managers.

Alison BlacklerUh, I, I, I hate to just say no because I, but I think that is the answer. I mean, there are some great businesses out there who are doing, who recognize this and, and are investing, but I think a lot of them don't see that. I was speaking to somebody yesterday who said, who worked in the police. Years ago, and he said, that's happened all the time. People just got promoted because that was the right next step. But then suddenly I've now got all these people, um, who are going to, uh, report to me and I don't really know what I'm doing. So I, I think, I think it sort of happens because it feels the right thing to do because they're brilliant at what they do. Technically, they're, they're the expert. They, they might be smashing more goals than anybody else. So it feels like, of course they're gonna be a great leader, but people are complex. People are, you know, they're amazing and they're also very complex, and I think if you don't have some skills around how to get the best out of people or how to get the best out of yourself when things aren't going very well, then I think there's a lot to be said there and a lot that needs to be done.

Alastair GreenerOne of the things that I'm seeing a lot when I'm dealing with organizations and whether that's working with them or just dealing with them as, as a, as a customer or client, is this insistence on putting. Extra processes in and almost dehumanizing organizations because they feel that a process is a more reliable factor than an individual. And they've actually taken empowerment away from the individuals to actually manage because maybe they don't trust them. I don't know. Is that something that, um, you are seeing in your work?

Alison BlacklerI think so, I think there's two things that I'm seeing. Businesses, and it, again, it's not wrong, but it, it, the missing, the missing component is they're either focused, as you say, on processes and trying to streamline things, which is works, but what about the people that are running the processes? But I think if a business is very target driven, very, very focused also on results, which obviously, understandably, of course you wanna work out how many. The products you're gonna be making or whatever your services are. But again, the, the, the glue is the people and, and businesses who aren't investing in the people side of it or in leadership. You know, for me, everybody has a story about a leader that they loved and a leader that they hated. And, and yet you can so easily be a leader that people don't like. And with. You know, with, with some self-awareness and some of this sort of stuff that we both do, people can make those changes and, and then everyone is a winner.

Alastair GreenerI was just going to ask a, a little bit about the blame game and how we stop people playing that game. You know, the fact that older people have done X, Y, z, younger people are A, B, C, you know, how do you deal with getting rid of that, that, you know, really unhelpful, negative way of behaving?

Alison BlacklerWell, again, I think it's about being aware of it. It's calling it out. So I use a model in my leadership program that literally spells out drama and looks at all of the, the roles in drama and so often in leadership and management, one of the roles that is gets played the most in drama is rescuing, is people who are. Then rescuing their team members, which is so disempowering be, and also it leads to burnout. Because, and this, this happens with these new managers who don't really know how to, to lead the people. So they'll just keep, they do all the work. So they suddenly go from being the most amazing person to now doing four people's jobs because they're constantly rescuing or they, and then, then they burn out. So then they blame everybody else, or they feel like a victim. So the sort of triangle that goes on is really disempowering. It's very fear driven, but it's mainly because people are not stopping. The, just the quick responses. I'll blame you. I'll blame you rather than actually take responsibility.

Alastair GreenerSo currently we've got millennials are probably the, the main sandwich generation now in terms of, they're the ones that you are probably dealing with in the HR function in organizations. Many of them will be millennials. What advice do you have for millennials? Firstly to manage older employees and then second to manage younger employees. So let's start off with the, um, millennials managing Gen X and boomers.

Alison BlacklerSo I think the, for me again, it's about transparency, isn't it? When, when people, if you, if you're blaming, it's, if you're blaming that somebody's not doing something or doing something. For me, it's about getting in the room with both generations. But it's about that transparency. 'cause I think, you know, the millennials will want to get it right. They'll want to kind of, you know, they're very values led, aren't they? They want to, to be. Kind of, uh, I've lost a word. They, you know, they want it to be Yeah. They want it to be right. They want to make sure

Alastair GreenerYeah, they want authenticity,

Alison BlacklerThey want authenticity. Thank you. That was the word. I was lost. But I think getting in the room, getting in a room, if you are leading these different generations, is, is being more open to. Possibilities and being more transparent, being more vulnerable to say, look what, what is going on here? The amount of people who aren't having the difficult conversation that they need to have is unbelievable and it's toxic and it's wasting time and money in businesses so often if you can have a conversation to say, look, let's get in the room and talk about whatever it is. So in a way it doesn't really matter. I think having those conversations that are. Uh, positive because you are having them, I think is something that's so, so important. But then you talk about conversations and if you were conversely gonna look at the younger generation and the gen, um, z uh, Z Gen Zs. The, the type of conversation or the type of communication we need to think about what's actually working. 'cause one size won't fit all. So what the boomers and the Gen next wants and what the Gen Z wants will be different. And I think being more aware of that, you know, again, it sounds so simple and often when I raise things people are like, gosh, it, that's just the most simple. Option here, but actually that is where we need to spend the time. It doesn't have to be a great big, brand new complex system. It's about speaking to people, but speaking to them in a way, you know, in a, in a language that they understand, a language of trust. You know, what, what is it? Is it face to face? Or what's the kind of conversation that needs to be had? And one of the, the tips, or one of the things I like to help people look at is have an agreement of how different. Types of conversations will be communicated. So if it's a really important one, it will be a face-to-face. If it's a really difficult one, it will be a face-to-face. If it's, um, I dunno, organizing something, it will be on this platform. Arrange that with people so that everyone understands. How to communicate and then where to communicate. 'cause there's so many platforms that we, in a team, you can have teams conversations, you can have text, you can have emails, you can have this. And I think that's what's losing some quality.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and actually it, it's, it's interesting because one of the things I talk a lot about in my book and other places is about having omnichannel communication. You know, a lot of organizations seem to want to just, you know, write, okay, we're gonna go all digital, or we're gonna do this way or that way. And the reality is that different generations want different things, older generations. Tend to want a little less communication. Younger generations want more. And the one thing, actually, it was really interesting, you talked there about the face-to-face and the one thing that a lot of people are missing out on is the fact that younger generations want face-to-face this whole thing of them hiding behind their phones and screens and digital platforms just. Doesn't bear out in all the research that I've done. They do want those face-to-face conversations and it makes sense because as youngsters, that's what they had When they had those important conversations, it was face-to-face. So it's interesting how that's replicating. Into the workplace. And one of the things I wanted to ask you was about empowerment, because you've talked there a lot about those conversations. You know, a manager now has to think, right, how am I gonna communicate the, which platform am I gonna use? Which one's going to be suitable for that generation? The level of frequency, all that stuff takes time. What can the C-suite do to empower that manager more and to effectively let them have the time to be able to do that? Because that's always the push and pull in business, isn't it?

Alison BlacklerI think the, um, you know what I said earlier about agree with everyone, so not about it being generational, agree with everyone where people will communicate. I think that's the what type of communication, because I think. You are right that there's assumptions made that, you know, the ge the, the younger ones don't want to be on, they wanna be on a platform, not on, uh, in, in the room. And that, and as we say, none of that's true. And, and also we're making assumptions that the whole of them, all of them will want that. And again, that's where I like to break that down. That was my TEDx, is to break down that stereotyping because. They were, they we're not all the same. Ev every generation, every group of us within each generation we're all unique. So there is no one, one thing. So for me it's about saying as a group, as a team, let's agree that this is how, where we'll communicate. 'cause I think that's one of the first things that is important. But in terms of how do we help with empowerment, what I love to talk about is how we. Give praise, how we give difficult, have difficult conversations, how we ask for help, how we offer help, and all of those things give people an opportunity to flourish and to to grow and to to be empowered. I like to ask leaders what conversations are people having about you at the dinner table, and if you can influence that by. You know, you might hear somebody saying, oh gosh, today, you know, I was trying to do this thing and it didn't work out and my manager just took it off me. Um, it happened again. Feels really rubbish and that's really disempowering. Whatever's gone on is disempowering versus do you know what, today this thing happened and it didn't go that well. But, you know, I had a conversation with my manager. And you know, they've, they've said, go on then have a go with that and let's see. I'll catch you at the other end. If it doesn't work out or something like that. The difference will be. Outstanding because that person will come in with new ideas, will want to have a go at something else. And that's where I think some of the styles of management and leadership are a little bit old fashioned. And they were not then leaning into somebody having lots of fresh ideas, um, and not being able to share 'em. I literally coach people who come up with a great idea. And then my question might be, have you shared it? No. He is like, whoa, that's bonkers, but it's happening.

Alastair GreenerAnd so much of it is about, you know, organizations thinking what's better for them rather than the individual and not recognizing that actually if you make it better for the individual, they are going to be far more effective in, in the roles that they have. Um, I want to finish off. I can't believe time has already gone. Um, but, um, I want to finish off if I may, by just asking you some, some. Some really quick, um, not quick fixes, but some quick tips, some quick thoughts that in your work, especially using neuroscience as you do and to break down those stereotypes and so on, what top tips do you have to, for organizations to bridge that generation gap so that they are working better together?

Alison BlacklerI mean, I like to see curiosity as a gateway, so. If something is happening, rather than just plow on with what you think is the right thing, see curiosity as a gateway of wondering what is actually going on here. So I think to actually almost visualize that as like Right. I'm just, I'm not gonna make any judgments. I'm not gonna do anything. Just see if you. Sort of it is, it is a thing you need to train yourself to do, but train yourself to be like, I'm just gonna be curious. I'm just gonna wonder what is actually going on. And I think doing that, it's in itself creates better awareness, better peace. I think that's major. I think remembering that a different communication style isn't a personal attack. So if you are being asked to communicate slightly differently, it doesn't mean that you are wrong or it's a problem. It just means that we need to think about how do we open up a bit more? Because I think that's often the case when we're, when I listen to leaders and they say, oh, you know, um, oh gosh, I've got to change my style because somebody isn't, you know, isn't responding very well. It, it feels like a negative thing. And I think we just need to, to, to see it as. We are just leaning into possibilities. And then I think it is that, you know, try and spend time listening to understand rather than listening to, to respond or listening to fix. Because leaders often feel that they are, they, they have all the answers, and, and they don't, you know, they, they, they don't and they don't need to either. So leaning into what people have got as options and ideas, you just never know someone. His chances are they'll have a gem.

Alastair GreenerI think that's a great piece of advice. Lean in to understand rather than leaning in to fix. Great. I love that concept. It's been absolutely fantastic talking to you, Allison. Uh, really, really appreciate your time today. Um, you've given us some great tips. We're gonna put, um, more information about you, including a link to your TEDx talk, um, in, in the socials, in the show notes at the bottom. But in the meantime, thank you for those pearls of wisdom. Thank you for joining us today. And, uh, thank you all for listening and watching too. Uh, we'll be back again in two weeks. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.