Networking, Isolation, and Creating the Connection

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger. Intergenerational Connections. Today's guest has had nine lives feature writer on national newspapers and magazines. Script writing for BBC tv, director of an independent TV production company, novelist, co-writing six novels and three non-fiction books. A MP's wife Lord's widow before establishing two networks. Honoring her husband's passion in prison reform. Wow. So you can imagine it's a huge delight to be in conversation today with Lady Val Corbert.

Val CorbettThank you.

Alastair GreenerLady Val, thank you so much for joining us. My goodness me, I'm exhausted reading your, uh, just, just reading how much you've done. Um, it's, it, it, it's been quite a journey and we'll delve into bits of that along the way in our conversation. But I want to go back to the beginning, if I may, about your generation when, when you were born and thinking as a, as a boomer, you know, a post-war baby. How you feel that you fit into the, what could be perceived as the stereotype of your generation.

Val CorbettHonestly, you're taking my breath away. That's a huge question. I don't know how, where do I start? Um, I think the main point is that, uh, every generation has its problems. Uh, we are having significant problems now with the younger generation because of jobs and housing and, and things that we all know about. But I think, I think I feel optimistic that, that the young people today, um. Are more resilient. I think that's it. They have to be, and I think they're more resilient. So I have quite a lot of comfort in thinking because everybody thinks, oh, young people, or many people think that young people know nothing and they do this and they lay a bus and all that. And that isn't true. That's not that the stereotype is not true. I've got, I know loads of people, certainly the people I come into contact with in the prison reform sector, um. Who do brilliant work and have the right attitude. So as I say, I'm optimistic that generationally we are probably okay.

Alastair GreenerSo going back, um, to your upbringing, because you were brought up in South Africa and one of the things that I talk about in my five circles of generational influence in terms of what makes us is where you were born will have a very key. Indication to who you eventually become because of the environment in which you were brought up in and, and then of course for you coming across to Britain, that was, you know, obviously I can imagine quite a, quite a change for you. Talk me through that a little bit in terms of what you went through and how you think that maybe framed you later on in life.

Val CorbettWell, one question actually changed my life because when I was 12, somebody said to me, you ask an awful lot of questions. You should be a journalist. And I said, you get money for asking questions, I'm gonna be a journalist. And from that day I had that absolute fixation and I did three jobs and, and, and did huge amounts of work to get, to get my fair to come to London because we were, I come from humble beginnings. Um, and, um, growing up in Cape Town at that time, um. And I think people don't understand this, but if you grow up knowing that black hands do the work, you take it absolutely for granted. And I'm ashamed to say that now, but at the time when you are growing up like that, it doesn't actually impin you, your, your, your psyche really, you know, the blacks are there to help you and do the work and you are the brains, uh, et cetera. So, um, it was only when I, I realized that apartheid was. Absolutely viciously bad. Uh, do you know that the, the leaders of the Africana, um, people who were doing the, the, um, strict, um, apartheid, um, movement went to church sometimes three times on a Sunday? So it was, you know, love thy neighbor as long as he's not black. Um, and so I came to this country, uh, at about, uh, when I was about 19 or 20, um. And as soon as I landed, I realized that this was where I was meant to be because I realized that the censorship and lack of freedom in South Africa at that time, um, we didn't have television, you know, miles after everybody else. Um, that was the way I just, I just felt that I could flourish here. I wasn't somebody's cousin, daughter, mother, whatever. I was absolutely. Um, my own person and I could do exactly what I needed and wanted to do. Um, so I've always been very, very happy in this country. I love it actually. And I still think whatever the problems and their problems throughout the world do you know, last week I was sitting with some people and there were moaning about Ki Starman and I said, let's see which leader we would want to be in this country. Any leader in the world. We couldn't come up with one. The New Zealand one desist, Johann, she was the one, but she's not, uh uh, she's not there anymore. She's actually lecturing, I think at, at Harvard. So this country has given me much, um, and I hope that I have given it back. Uh, and um, I just, I just really, yeah, I flourished here.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and, and what's interesting, you know, that background. Do you think, you know, seeing what you grew up with, with apartheid and, and, and everything associated with that, do you think that's the sowed, the seeds of the social justice that you went on to pursue? Do you think that's, you know, part of.

Val CorbettAbsolutely. Um, my political mentorship came with my husband, of course, but uh, he was a very arch anti-apartheid, um, campaigner. By the way, the British people call it apartheid. It, it, it's the Afrikaans one is part hate. And I always think that's such a, it's such a description word for what happened. Um, and, um. I, I really think that, you know, I'm, I'm Libra. I don't actually believe in astrology much, but Libra is a sign of scales and fair injustice. And I think that really describes what I feel about, about, uh, social justice in this country and, and any anyway in the world. Um, my husband used to work a lot of, uh, for the Iranian resistance and, um, I mean for a long time and, um. He, he has imbued me with, with the, the attitudes that, you know, people who protest, for instance in Iran who get executed. Uh, protest is good. Uh, if it's nonviolent, of course.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and one of the things that, you know, clearly, we're going to be talking about generational differences. Um, and I always like to start off with people's backgrounds because I think it does help to frame them because I, I feel so strongly that the way that we're brought up, the environment in which we're brought up does shape us for our future life. And, and the world events at, uh, as we're growing up make a big difference to, uh, what's what happens in people's lives. And subsequent with your work in journalism, in writing, um, with TV and so on, you've seen a few generations, uh, come along and you've seen that evolution and you've seen that change. You, you said you're very positive about the generations today and the younger generations.

Val CorbettYep, I am. Um, I think I've just explained why I think they're more resilient. Um, I think they need to be more tough. Um, I think that they, uh, are more inventive. Um, um, I dunno where you, you are gonna go with this, Alastair, 'cause I think I've explained it, haven't I?

Alastair GreenerYou, you, you have, and actually, but, but the reason I wanted to cover that is because there's, there is. Uh, quite a lot of demonization towards young generations, and Venice always has been since the age of Socrates. You know, there's been, uh, people who have criticized the young generation and, you know, but do you feel that they're resilient against that criticism?

Val CorbettYes. Every look, as you say, every uh, every parent has always said, well, I didn't do that in my day. Um, the thing is that they are forging. We are in this world of ai. We are in this world with cyber hacking. We're in this world with, with terrible wars. So. You know, they are growing up in an, in an era of, of danger in a way, and yet I'm impressed that they are not, it doesn't seem to hold them back. That's what I think I admire most of them. Those are the people that I have met, by the way. So I can't be, I can't actually be more general. The people I have met, the young people I've met in the prison reform sector and, and, and in my, um, uh, you know, I hold lunches for top business women in London as a fundraiser. Um, and those women that I, that I've met, again, the young people, um, I'm just, I'm just in awe of them and I admire what they're doing and what they're attempting to do.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and, and in your, in your work, you are clearly seeing, um, you know, generally, um, people of an older generation in the prison reform system who are there, who are leading it, and obviously many of the people who are, you know, in the prison system at the moment. Will be again, of all ages. What sort of differences are you seeing in terms of the way that they communicate in the, the way that they work?

Val CorbettWell, the two tiers, there's the ones that have been there a long time and obviously are very experienced and knowledgeable, but the younger people, um, they, they come up with ideas outta the box and the, the merger of those two. Is inspirational. So, you know, the, the, the experienced person will say, well, that's good, but why don't we, and, and they, they compromise. So the things that I think we can learn from the younger generation is that, that, that, that way of thinking, that's not traditional. The, the one thing about the British people that I've found is that they, they don't like change. They, they've always done it this way. This is the way it's gonna be, this is the way it will always be. And young people are coming up and say, well, it doesn't have to be like that because we've got ai, we've got this, we've got that. Um, I think, I think, you know, the, the merger of the two is, is actually awe inspiring.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and and what's about, um, millennials at the moment are in an interesting position because they are, they, they are probably. Very highly represented in HR functions, in middle management, and they're often seen as this bridging generation between the older, um, generations who are still in the workplace, gen X and boomers, and then the younger ones. How, how are you seeing them faring with all of the change and everything that's put upon them at the moment?

Val CorbettWell, bearing in mind what I've just said about the traditional way of doing things, um. We all have to change our attitudes. We all have to change because there's a new world order coming in, uh, where AI apparently is going to make immense changes in our lifestyle, in our jobs. And I think that millennials, um, are in the, seem to be in the forefront of adopting that change. So, um, the way that they are doing the business, they, the way they are doing their thinking, the way they are doing their inventing. Uh, is going to be the forerunner of what this country and the world is gonna be because they are tying new things all the time and some of them work. Um, I think the forerunners are going to be very, um, very definite about how things are gonna have to change because they really, really are in the way that we're going through.

Alastair GreenerAnd you know, traditionally it's, it's older generations who are more resistant to change. How in your work do you try and ease the way to help those older generations? Adapt to change because some people never will change. And maybe those people need to find something else to do, um, within the environment that where they're working. Um, but the trouble is we, we sometimes create the stereotype that all older people won't change. You clearly have shown that change is absolutely something that can be embraced. So how do you work with those older generations to help them see the positive side of change?

Val CorbettWell, it's not easy. Um. I think that the, the older people that I, I come into contact with, um, seem to be, well, I've always done it that way. And then when you say, yes, but you know, would it be a good idea? Maybe? And they say yes, maybe. And you think they're never gonna do it, but, but you have to keep on, keep on keeping on, um. I, I just think that, um, we have much to learn from older people. I would never, ever say that we can't. Um, and we have to take notice of what they say and how they do things and then adapt. And I find that, um, the adaption is the key. It's a compromise. You say, well, you've always done it like that, but we found that this works. And then they say, oh, yes, yes. I think that might. Uh, and that's how you're going on. It's a changing world and, uh, older people are not adaptable sometimes, uh, as, as much as the younger generation. So, but their knowledge and experience shouldn't go to waste. So I try very hard to encapsulate the two generations within all the people I work with.

Alastair GreenerAnd you're absolutely right. You mean when you look at different cultures where older people are seen as the sages of society and sometimes we, we do sort of put people out to pastor a little bit when, when they've got so much more to offer and to give and it's trying to bring those together. What are the, you, you know, you, you speak very highly of Gen Z and you know, you talk about their resilience, which not necessarily everybody will, will always agree with you, but what are the challenges that you see in terms of older people communicating with them that Gen Z profitably could work on? Um, so where's that, where's that sort pinch point?

Val CorbettOh, you are asking such difficult questions, Alison. I thought I was gonna have a very easy time. You're making me think, uh, um, the,

Alastair GreenerGood.

Val Corbettthe answer is, I don't know. Um, I think that, that, uh, many young people think that older people have nothing to tell them. Uh, or some, I mean, you know, we are generalizing here. Um. And, and older people think, well, they, they know nothing. So the way to bring them together, uh, which I have done actually, uh, I, I, I do meetings with my, um, my, me, my members of my network and the age group, you know, varies from, you know, 22 to up to 70. So, uh, and when they talk, when, when we talk and discuss things, it's very interesting to see that some of the older generation. Kind of nod sometimes when, when the younger people want to bring up some things. So. I think the best thing to that, that they could do is to mix more. And that is a problem because you'll find that younger people want to be with their own, their own, uh, age group, ditter, the older ones. Um, so to bring them together is a, is a challenge. But I actually, um, in my, in my meetings with, with, as I said, these two, two, um, uh, generations. Um, I have found that when we break for coffee and all that, they, they do talk to each other. So I think coffee is the actual, actual thing to do. Bring them, to bring them together for coffee.

Alastair GreenerYeah, I, I, I couldn't agree more. And I know there are some people who will, um, you know, as I've worked with, will deliberately have meetings and social environments where they bring different generations together and almost force them to communicate with one another, and they suddenly realize, um, how much more they've got in common than they ever realized they had in common. And of course, you know, for Gen Xers who. Go on about, I don't really understand this generation. Well, they're your kids. They're the, they're the same age as your kids, so how do you not get them? Um, so what, what are the other strategies that you, that you take on and you know, that you, you put into practice with your prison reform work? Because, you know, there's, there's, you know, you've got a lot of tension there. You know, by default, so you know you're breaking down the tension. You are also trying to get people to communicate. What are some of the strategies that you use?

Val CorbettWell. When I, when I have these meetings, I call them networking meetings because, uh, people are working and this is the problem these days, we are being very isolated. Um, working from home is, is one, one problem because you are working in isolation even though you, you, you know, you may use zooms and things. Um, and, and, uh. You, you go out to the restaurants and you see people on the phone when they're talking. I, we, my husband and I went to a restaurant once and there were four people and they were all on the phone and he said to me, why don't they go out to dinner with the people they're phoning? So, um, I think social networks are. Very good for some things and very, very bad for isolation, isolating people because again, you sit on your sofa with your, with your phone, and, and even when you are with people, you're on your phone and you are engaging with the people on the phone, not with the people around you. So, um, the thing, whenever I go and, and, and talk or, or, uh, have meetings, I always say, you know, please put your phones away. So, because people, even when they're on the table, their eyes, you know, their eyes go, who's, who's funny? So I think that, that we have to, we have to realize, uh, in the streaming, uh, of, of films and things, you don't go to the cinema anymore. You sit in, in your sitting room and, and look at the films that are on, on the cinema. So why do you wanna go there? The isolation is the thing that actually I'm more, I'm more worried about than anything else because, uh, even in offices, I'm told that people email people in the next room. They don't go and talk to them. They on email or texts. My daughter loves texts. I don't like texts. Why can't she phone me? And, and, and I moaned her all the time about that. And she said, well, I'm busy and I'm ding said. Too busy to phone your mother. I, I sound like a Jewish mother actually, and I'm not Jewish, so, um, anyway, that's, that's, that's the, that's the main problem I find generationally everywhere because older people don't use, um, social media as much and, and their phones as much as younger people. Younger people, if you took a phone away from them, they would cut off their arms because their arms are no good because they can't hold a phone. So.

Alastair GreenerBut what about the argument that what young people do today will all be doing tomorrow?

Val CorbettI hope not. I hope not.

Alastair GreenerI.

Val Corbettfear so. I fear So, because it is a habit. It is a habit. I mean, when one wakes up, you go to the phone and look at the headlines and, and then you go, you know, I do that. So, um, that, that is, that is a real problem. And I think, I'm sorry to say, I dunno how to solve it.

Alastair GreenerSo what would you say in, in, in recent times, things that you have been able to resolve? The things that you have where, areas where you have made progress. When it's, when it's about bringing generations together.

Val CorbettWell, it's not so much generations, but different, different, um, attitudes. I think, uh, because it's not so much a generation, you can have a 16-year-old who has a genera, who has a, who has a mind of a 80-year-old because, you know, he is, he's set in a way. And you, you're gonna have an 80-year-old who's flying around the world. So it's not so much age as, uh, Alastair, it's, it's a state of mind. Um. I think that what I try to do, uh, in all the things I, I'm, I'm involved in is to, is to try and, and get people together. If you get people together talking. And this is when I bring back the isolation thing. If you get people to talk an 80-year-old talking to a 16-year-old, for instance, there's a thing on television that add add for trains when the grandmother's talking to the granddaughter and all, and I them, I think that will never happen actually on a train anyway. Um, but, but the thing is, if you can get them chatting. You'll find that there are commonality there. There is. Because that person, the older person has done what the younger person is trying to do, maybe. And, and then they say, ah, yes, but if you do this, I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen. Um, not a lot by the, but I've, I, and that is the way, the way through. And I think the isolation, uh, I mean the Australian, um, um. Uh, the thing about the, um, uh, the phones for, um, 16 year olds, uh, the 16 year olds hate it. Uh, the parents love it, uh, and the 16 year olds will get around it. So, uh, one, one of the things that we have to take into account is, is that young people will always swerve and dive and get around things. And the older people will try and stop them. And that has been there since the Socrates, as you say. Um, and um, we can't do much about that. The only thing we can do is to try to get them to talk together.

Alastair GreenerIt, you know what it, it's most powerful thing in the world, isn't it? Communication. Um, and I'm always, always reminded of the George Bernard Shaw quote of, the biggest challenge with communication is the assumption it's taken place. Because it's just not happening enough. It's never been easier to communicate, but it's also never been harder to get your message across and to get it through. What are the kind of. Strategies, again, using that word, but the, the ways that you use to get people talking, you said, you know, just bring them into, have a coffee, put your phones away. Um, what other things you know, can, do you think that, that you've done in the prison reform world that actually the, the outside world could learn, uh, from and take on board?

Val CorbettWell, I think I can only tell you about our conferences. Um, I have, um. About 190, uh, uh, forgive me, we, they're joining all the time. It could be 185 or members of the corporate network for prisoner reintegration. Uh, and we, I, I'm the glue that holds them together and we, I send out newsletters. I'm, I do little regional meetings, uh, and they are all very good. But our national conference is called a networking conference. And our focus, we don't have many speeches. We have, I think. Maybe 10 or uh, 10 minutes or 15 minutes, people talking. The rest of the time is networking, getting to know the people that are in the same ballpark as you. And, uh, I do thing called speed networking. I do this for my women's, uh, lunches as well, and I give them 10 minutes to talk to each other. And then they move on. Now, the 10 minutes is not a long, long time, but it's enough to get the gist of what they do and to change. Uh, and to try to, uh, collaboration is the, the bedrock of this network. So, uh, they have enough time to get their, their details, oh, can we talk about it? And then we have the coffee session. I told you coffee's very important in my life. The coffee session where they, they, they, they then do a lot of, in, in, you know, sort of firm talking about what they're gonna do together if they are able to. And that kind of thing is absolutely pivotal. Because again, I come back to it, it's not in isolation. They are talking, they're looking into each other's eyes. They are, uh, you know, they are actually happy. I mean, the feedback I get. From, from the women's network as well as from this is lyrical. I mean, I, I need a bigger hat. That's all I can say. They absolutely love it. They love it because they have things in common, which is why quite important. Um, and, and, you know, it works. It absolutely works. And then they go back to their, their, their, their, their places. Um, and they have people that they can then email, talk to Zoom, whatever. Um, and we've created bonds. And the bonds are the ones that last.

Alastair GreenerAnd I, I fully, fully, uh, on board with you with that. Once you have a relationship with somebody, um, you know, that's, that's really, really, really strong. However, in, in my research that I did for my book and in other places, I read younger people and they, they shy away from networking. It's not because they don't like it, it's because they don't know it. It's, it's not familiar to them and therefore it's not, it's not how, you know, people are. You know, often brought into the, into the place of work these days. So how do you get the younger people engaged with the networking so that they are fully, fully on board with it?

Val CorbettWell, you have to make it, um. You have to make it attractive to them. And I think that, I mean, we have speakers, uh, at, at, at most of the things I do, and the speakers are the things that, that bring them. So I choose the speakers very, very carefully and that's the way, you know, if they're interested in the subject, they will come as they say. But I found some very interesting generational, um, things in the, within the prison service, uh, the prison service. Um. I'm, I'm gonna say they're very interesting, although a friend of mine said, don't, don't say that. Just say, I've, I've got something to tell you because I may not find, find it interesting. So I'm gonna say I've got some, in some news that I find interesting about the prison service. Usually, uh, the prison system works that young men, usually we have 83, 80 5,000 prisoners at the moment of only 5,000 are women. So mostly men. By the time they get to four to 39, having been in prison perhaps a couple of times, they think to themselves, do you know what I'm gonna change? So this, this forties a kind of cutoff point, but now we're finding there is an upsurge in the over fifties, and this is, I find it quite extraordinary. Oh, you may find that extraordinary. I find it extraordinary that, uh, the, these are because of historical. Um. Sentences that they get when they've done something wrong very early in their lives and they're now being, being, uh, prosecuted for it. So we've got this huge wge of older prisoners with all the problems that, that, uh, you know, arise. I mean, my husband always said when he goes into the House of Lords, the organ recital starts. The organ recycle with the older prisoners. And this is why, uh, you know, the system is not in a good way because the older prisoners have got problems, health problems, mental problems, I mean mental problems throughout anyway, but you know, particularly the older generation. So, um, this is a major problem that we didn't know about a few years ago.

Alastair GreenerWow. I, I have to say that is, that is quite staggering. And is there any form of explanation of, of, of what's changing and also that 40-year-old cutoff, is that actually getting less, um, so that they maybe are people getting to that maybe at an earlier stage, but then somehow coming back into the system later on?

Val CorbettNo, uh, the, the. If you, if you know there, there's the, if you are in prison, you've got, you already have terrible problems, you know, you've probably been in care. Um, there's no education and so on. Um, so when you get to 40, you suddenly, even the, even with people who've been in prison many times, prison isn't a soft option. So, you know, they get to the stage when they say enough. So we've got, you know, this gap between. Thir 40 and 50, and 50 is when the older generation start. Uh, and, uh, it's, it's, it's sad, but I mean, if you've done something very bad in, in your past and then you are prosecuted for it, you, you know, you should go to prison if it's bad enough. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a problem. It's a huge problem in the prison service at the moment.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and I think that's one of the interesting things that you highlight and you hear other experts highlighting is, is the people who end up in the prison system, you know, are there for complex reasons. People often look at the, uh. The superficial aspect of a crime that they may, that they have indeed committed, but actually what's led up to that point is a lot more complex, as you said, in terms of their background, and again, almost coming back full circle to what we were talking about before, the way that you were brought up, the environment in which you were brought up, frames, who you are, and eventually who you might become in terms of your behavior.

Val CorbettWell, a custodial manager on the prison service once said to me, if I induct 10, 10 men, most of them would've been in care. Most of them have got mental health problems. Most of them, uh, have, have not had a, an education. Most of them have never had a job, and many of them have tried to commit suicide. And those are the ones that are predicated to go to prison. Um, and the the answer is that we have, uh, you know, this, this huge gap of poverty, uh, that, that is feeding the prison service. Uh, and we just don't have the capacity to help them. We, you know, we have, uh, people in prison for substance abuse where they get very little help for it, not because the prison service doesn't want to help. They don't have the facilities, they don't have the money, they don't have the, the qualifications. So you have people who are. Very wounded going into prison coming out. Uh, we have 50,000 people, um, coming outta prisons every year, but only 12% get support. So without that support, no wonder we have the highest re-offending rates in Western Europe. Um, I mean, you know, it is not rocket science. The poverty is the thing that is feeding the prison service, and we need to have a more equal society.

Alastair GreenerWell, that is again, is a huge, huge topic. Um, and, and I certainly, it's a topic that needs to be discussed and shouldn't be the elephant in the room. Um. I want to finish off, if I may, by just really drawing upon your, you know, your nine lives of careers and, uh, different things that you've done. What have, what do you see as the best ways to bring. Generations together, so they work together better. So they're not, as you were talking about earlier on, about being in, in, in silos of their own generations, but actually mixing and understanding and respecting one another. And you, you've touched on it, on it quite a bit throughout the, the, the conversation. But could you maybe encapsulate that into what you feel would be hugely helpful in bringing generations together?

Val CorbettWell, you know, there's, there's, um, uh, uh, movement, uh, clubs called Fab. Uh, PHAB, physically handicapped able-bodied and they mix able-bodied with people with disabilities and it works really well. Um, and in, in a funny kind of way, that's what we need for the old generation and the younger generation to get together. Um, honestly, I say it is, it is. Really against society at the moment to do this because people are in their own homes. COVID was a huge problem, huge problem of isolation, and many of us, me included, have never been able to get back to what we were before COVID. Um, and the isolation there is, is endemic. So we, we need, we need more communication, not through text. Note my daughter, uh, we need, we need, we need people face to face. We need, we need, I, I would like, um, people in, in coffee shops to try, you know, uh, the House of Lords got a one table where if, if Lords go in and they don't have anybody with them, they, they go and talk around the table. Some of them have never talked to each other before, so they do that. Well, why can't we have that in in cafes? Why don't we have that in restaurants where people go in on their own and, you know, there's a table there for everybody to, to much. Some, some clubs do that, but, you know, we've got to do more communication. I mean, there, it's, it's a no brainer that if you talk to somebody, whatever level you're on, it'll be interesting because the older person will get the, in the, the, the younger people to talk to, talk to them about what they're doing and then, you know. Probably the older person would've done something like that in their, in their youth. There is a connection. There will be a connection, but we've just gotta find it and that's gonna be the problem.

Alastair GreenerI, and you know what? I, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Sometimes we just have to contrive the connection, bringing people together and, and, and forcing it somehow, whether that's by just doing almost like. Wagga ma, where we all eat at the same table. So you don't have any choice but to, um, commune and to connect. And I'm, I'm completely with you. Um, it's been a, a joy talking to you and I've, I've just been loving, just hit hitting the tip of the iceberg of your experiences and, uh, your sage. For all of us. Uh, so Lady Val Corbert, thank you so much indeed for joining me on the podcast. Uh, we'll put some details of some of your work in, in the, uh, show notes for people. And uh, yeah, thank you very much and thank you for listening. It's been a pleasure. And I'll be back again in two weeks time with another podcast. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.