Interaction Is Not Connection

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and showing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. Today I'm delighted to be talking to a speaker, author, and the founder of the Connection Blueprint. She helps organisations understand the next generation of talent while creating cultures where people feel more connected, engaged, and able to thrive. So today we're gonna be talking about things like what the next generation of talent expects from work, why connection has become so important in organisational culture, and how leaders can bridge generational differences without relying on stereotypes. I really want to start off by talking about your generation and who you are, whether you are typical of your generation and what life was like growing up for you.

Christina WenmanYeah, so I grew up in a pretty small town in Wisconsin, in the countryside. Um, I was the youngest of four and would say I had pretty traditional parents, at least compared to my friends, a lot of them. And the second question about whether I see myself as typical of my generation with I, I, I've typically struggled with that question and have gotten it quite a bit. And I think I struggle with it because it feels like two questions, right? You have the first that's obviously asking are you typical of your generation? But underneath that, there is kind of this assumption that I have to make or, or definition that I have to give to what is typical of my generation. And so I think that's kind of where some of the hesitation comes. But when I speak to companies, I'm just thinking about how I define Gen Z. And the way I define Gen Z is they are the first generation to be raised fully immersed in digital technology, right? So iPhones, social media and being influenced by COVID during their formative years. So if I use that definition, I definitely think those things shaped me. Um, I wouldn't say that I'm chronically online or have a crippling phone addiction or, you know, I, I try to avoid doom scrolling as much as possible. But I think those are oftentimes the extremes people tend to use and sometimes put on Gen z. I just see a lot of negative perceptions of that. Um, and I don't like to believe that that is the baseline, the typical for my generation, although I do see that it exists. That being said, though, I think some of my most formative events would not have been able to happen if I had not been significantly influenced by, especially at iPhones, social media, the way that technology was growing up. Because, you know, I think about my writing my book and having my podcast, both of those things very much hinged on my ability to see somebody speak online, whether it was a TED Talk or whatever it was, and send them a cold email to interview them again, whether it was for my book or my podcast. And I think that really did influence me, which makes me kind of think maybe I am very typical of my gen generation in that, that that aspect. But I also think who you are is heavily shaped by what you choose to cons, consume, consume. And you know what is is so beautiful about the world that we live in now is we, especially within the last couple of decades, can choose what we do consume online. Right? Um, I remember being very inspired by and influenced by a lot of older authors like Brian Tracy, uh, Simon Sinek, at least at the time. And I remember when I wrote my book in high school, I reached out to them and asked them to, you know, just sent my book to them. And, uh, Brian Tracy came back with a praise for the back of my book. And then Simon Sinek wrote me a handwritten note. And I remember getting that back and thinking, oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Like, these are people I've looked up to for so long, and I went to go tell my friends and they had no idea who I was talking about. So in moments like that, sometimes I feel like I'm not part of my generation, but the aspect of, you know, definitely being influenced by social media and iPhones technology completely had an influence.

Alastair GreenerAnd as you, as you know, you know, from our conversations before, you know, I'm very much of the opinion that we're shaped by our generation. We're not, certainly not defined by it. And you know, there's a lot to be said for what you were talking about just then. You know, when you, I, I guess the way to see how typical you are as you look around your peers, and you answered that perfectly by saying your peers didn't know who Simon Sinek was. And, um, that, that obviously is one of those differences. And, you know, I, I've it, the other thing I'd like to pick up on is the fact that it, it's interesting for people who are older to realise that sometimes a generation is seen as a, almost like a loaded term. Oh, you are Gen Z, you know, that it automatically comes out as a little bit negative because, let's be honest, the press about Gen Z is probably more negative than positive. And it's interesting that, you know, you, you are quite sensitive to that, which is completely understandable. So I think that there, there's a lot to really unpack there, which is really, really interesting. And I guess that leads on neatly to what made you want to then influence the way that Gen Z are perceived in the workplace and how they are managed, if you like, by older generations. What was it that got you in that direction?

Christina WenmanYeah, so it's an interesting question because for a while I actually stayed away from the generational conversation altogether because I didn't feel like it resonated, especially the negative perceptions. But I think for me, what really clicked and made me interested in sharing more about the generations was just reframing my understanding of what a generation actually is and the role that generational context plays into who we are. Because when you really kind of dive into, I know we spoke about this on my podcast before, it's like a generation isn't just a group of people who happen to be born around the same time, but it's a group of people who were shaped by some shared physical experience, right? And so, as I mentioned before, defining Gen Z as the first generation to be raised fully immersed in digital technology that does have an influence whether you identify as your typical generation or not. And you know, I think what I noticed was that people were very quick to label, but not really understand, okay, how does this context influence how we lead? And instead of trying to adapt to the next generation, really looking at this next generation as what can we learn from them, not as individuals, but what can we learn from how they're adapting to the world that we're living in? Right? And so, based on what we're noticing in this generation, what is this telling us about how we need to change how we lead? And so I see the world that we live in now as one of the most disconnected times that we've ever experienced. And that signals to me that we need to do something to fix that connection problem. I know you specifically asked about what it was in my life that made me inspired to do that. Um, my first job out of college was actually leading employee engagement and wellness internally for an insurance company. And, you know, it was, it was a dream job. And I had autonomy, everything that you would imagine it would take to engage an employee I had in this role. But the irony of it was that I actually found myself become disengaged in this role despite the fact that I was given a lot of the things that you would want to be given if you were, again, somebody trying to attract and retain the next generation, right? But the reason why I found myself becoming disengaged was because I became disconnected both. And it's not just a disconnected with your manager, it's not just disconnected with your, you know, in company, but it can also be personal as well. And so, going through the experience that I had made me realise that we have created a very carrots and sticks type of motivational approach, right? So companies will go in and best practises say, put a ping pong table in the, in the break room and, you know, put snacks in the kitchen and that'll bring, that'll bring the young generation in. And don't get me wrong, because there are a lot of cultures out there that have ping pong tables. I love ping pong. Nothing against that. Uh, but I think it can take us away from what truly motivates people. When we look at motivation science, it's not just about giving people what they say they want, but it's, you know, say for example, you take Maslow's hierarchy, it tells us that people need to have a progression of human needs that are met before they can be motivated by some of those higher level things like recognition, desire, and intrinsic motivation to fulfil them their personal lives. So I think my experience recognising that I had all the things that were supposedly best practise to engage an employee, but then still recognising I wasn't showing up as my best self made me realise that it's not always about the ping pong table in the, in the break room, but it's really, you know, what are some of the other underlying needs that might not be met by this individual. And it just so happens, like I mentioned, we live in one of the most disconnected times in history. So I think for a lot of people in my generation, it is feeling disconnected and being disconnected that is allowing or not allowing us to reach our full potential.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and I think that you've, you've touched on a lot of different things there, which I'd definitely like to, um, take further. The, the first thing I really want to ask you though is because obviously we were talking about generational things there and how you felt disconnected, and I think that actually is possibly a Gen Z thing, but actually I think it's possibly broader than that, that people, you know, we live in a world where it's never been easier to connect, never been easier to communicate yet there's less of it taking place every day. You know, a lot of us are waking up every day thinking, okay, where I've gotta check my LinkedIn, I've gotta check my emails, I've gotta check my WhatsApp. You know, but there's all these, there's multitude of ways of communicating with one another. So it's interesting to see how much of that is generational and how much is just societal, the way that we live today. The other thing though, I really want to bring up is about the generations and life stages because, you know, as we know, generation Z or Gen Z are at, at that kind of like adolescent stage. There's a recent report, I dunno if you know, in, uh, Cambridge in the UK where they were talking about the adolescent phase last until 35, which is extraordinary. And I think that's possibly a little excessive. But the point is that the Gen Z come into the workplace. They are the movers and shakers of their era. They are the young people, just like Simon Sinek wrote about millennials entering the workplace, you know, 12 years ago. So where do you draw this distinction between something that is a generational trait, a generational aspect of feeling disconnected, and how much of that is something about their life stage?

Christina WenmanYeah. Do you want me to answer, so I know you had two questions in that. Would you like

Alastair Greenerlet's yeah. Answer it. Answer it the way, answer that, the way that you interpret it, and, and certainly let's talk about that, you know, the difference between generation and life stage.

Christina WenmanYeah. Well, and I, I, I'm also think, like what you're saying kind of just reminds me of something that comes a lot up a lot when I am speaking about connection and how connection is so important for this generation. And the reality is connection is a core human need, right? Like, as our world changes, the core human needs don't change, but the environment that teaches us how to adapt to those needs do change, then that's where you get the things like technology and, and how that's influencing our ability to have those needs met. Um, and so kind of like, I think that's a, that's another aspect within this conversation. Um, I think a big issue that I see is that people mistake interaction for connection. And to your point, like we have it, it, it's never been easier to connect. And I think our, I think we need to get more clear on semantics because that's not connection, that's interaction, interaction. It has never been more

Alastair GreenerYeah, fair

Christina Wenmaninteract with another person. Simultaneously, like I think that's the reason we've actually ended up in this problem in the first place because we have built it so we have more interaction. I mean, I actually equate it to kind of like the food system, how we have engineered it so we have more access to food or food-like substance. We have more calories than ever, yet we are less, less nourished than ever. And I think very similarly, it's we have more interaction than ever, but then have taken away the nourishment of what that connection actually is. Um, and so I think it's really important. And part of, I would say the foundation of my work actually is helping people understand what actually is connection. Because interaction is the mechanism that's necessary, right? Having the conversation, being in a room together. And to be honest, I think you can still connect virtually as well. Um, that's another conversation about attunement and all that. But I think understanding what are the conditions that make interaction, connection And the unfortunate reality is we struggle with it because our environment is optimised for efficiency and speed. And when you talk about the solution, which is comes down to noticing, listening, asking questions. I know we've talked about that quite a bit. It goes against the way our society has progressed with technology and our focus on optimization. Um, so I think a big reason why we struggle is because we don't actually understand the conditions that create connection beyond just interaction. And then once we do understand them, it takes a very intentional effort to build that connection because our brains are wired for the path of least resistance. Just because our brain's most important focus is how can we survive? Um, and naturally as we have continued to make technology, we have paved an easier path. And so as we no longer have to get more connection, it's, it's not happening by default anymore. We have to build it by intention.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and and how much do you think it's, it's a generational thing. So because we, we've got a multitude of things in there, as I mentioned, we've got life stage, we've got generation, and we've also got the times that we live in. And, and as you said, you know, this multitude of ways of interacting and you are absolutely right. Interaction is not engagement. And some people, um, don't realise that connection is a far deeper thing than I, I guess interaction is more transactional than true connection. But where do you split that between generation, life stage and just the way that we all are as individuals, probably brought on mostly by technology.

Christina WenmanYeah. And I, I do think life stage does play a big role in a lot of the negative perceptions that people have, right? Like I think some of the immediate negative perceptions is of the next generation, regardless of what year you're talking about, it's, they're always, oh, the younger generation is lazy. The younger generation has issues around entitlement or effort. Um, and I think, yes, part of it is life stage. Another component though is as we get more technology, technology is designed to make life more frictionless. And so things that this next generation has to do the e or gets to do the easy way, the last generation had to do the hard way. And so they're always comparing what they had to do compared to that next generation coming up, right? Like the calculator, I think about for my next generation, there will be things that Jen Alpha does that I think, oh, well, I actually had to physically write the emails or, you know, whatever that will be with ai. Granted, I'm also still kind of in my formative years, so maybe, maybe we'll see what, especially you said 35, I thought it was 30 for some reason, that with the study that you're, that you're bringing up. Um, yeah, so I think, I think part of it is life stage, but also a big part of it that we don't pay enough attention to is the fact that technology continues to make life easier. And that's what we've designed it for. Um, and so I guess my question then for people is, are you comparing this next generation's laziness to what you had to do because that was your easiest path at the time compared to this Next generations is just more frictionless.

Alastair GreenerOkay, so let's look now at your work and what you do with organisations where you want to improve this connection. Do you believe that connection is different for one generation versus another? Or is it, as you were talking before, is basically it, it it's a human need and if, if, if it is that human need or whether it's generational, how do you then go about guiding organisations to help them achieve better connection within their teams?

Christina WenmanYeah, I think it, it is a core human need across the board. I mean, when you look at why we are wired for connection, it's because there are some problems that we can't solve on our own. And historically the reason we've even been been able to evolve as a species is because of our ability to work together form tribes and tackle those problems. Um, and in any tribe, you know, we talk about emotions, right? Every emotion has an evolutionary root. And so I like to ask, you know, peeling back the onion all the way to understand what connection is, what is that core emotion that we truly need to feel, to feel connected? It's feeling seen and feeling valued. You know, why is that right? And in any tribe, feeling seen meant that you were acknowledged and feeling valued meant that you were protected by the group. Because when you're seen and acknowledged, you're protected by the group. And when you're valued, you aren't at risk of being kicked outta the group. And so both of these are the core fundamental emotions that people need to feel in that group. And I like to ask, okay, then how do we make people feel seen and valued? And in any interaction that we have, this is why I say like, interaction is the mechanism. And it's kind of the hollow vessel that determines whether or not we feel connected or not in any interaction that we have. Our brain consciously goes through this loop. It starts with what we notice based on what we notice, we form a response based on that response. We get an action or do an action. And based on that action, we get a result. So what I like to do in my work, specifically with leaders when I'm helping them build more interaction or, or build more connection with their teams, is I have them think about that loop, right? Every time that you interact with another person, you have an opportunity for that to be either connecting you to that person or disconnecting you to that person. You can create trust or you can create distrust. And so I have people look at that subconscious process that goes on in their brain and ask, where do you get stuck in that process? 'cause you can get stuck in any part of the loop. So sometimes people don't even notice. So for example, I, I'll try to make this a little more tangible. If you're in a room and somebody's not speaking up, are you even noticing that they're not speaking up or asking the question or getting curious about why that might even be? Are you noticing when people might be struggling? And again, our world pulls us out of the present moment. That makes it really difficult to notice. Um, and then another one is people default to making assumptions because it's quicker to assume than to genuinely sit down and ask. Right? I know we, you talk about that quite a bit as well. And so there's a few diff, there's other places where people get, can get stuck in that loop. But what I have people do is identify and reflect on their current interactions because it often is kind of either. They tend to have similar habits of why they end up becoming disconnected. And so I have people find some of those core problems of why are the interactions I'm having not ending up in, resulting in connection and then addressing those. So that's kind of the work that I'll do on more of an interpersonal level. But with any culture change, which is what I ultimately help companies do, is I how do we, how do we change the culture to be more connected? It's a shared responsibility, right? So you can't just put in an, an initiative or have the leaders do something, but then not anything else, um, and expect culture change. So I typically look at it as, okay, what is the infrastructure that we have? What are the leaders doing and how are the employees experiencing it? Those are the three levels of shared responsibility that I typically look at. Um, infrastructure, just being policies, procedures, things like that. The leaders being that, how are leaders connecting with their employees? And then the employee perspective of are they truly experiencing it? So what I shared about the interaction example is how the leaders then interact with their teams.

Alastair GreenerAnd talking of those leaders, um, are you, what's the kind of response you're getting? Because some people are still, you know, let's be honest, uh, you know, a little bit in the past with the way that they're thinking and that, you know, why should we change? Why aren't they changing? You know, why is it down to us? You know, we're the ones giving them the jobs. They should be grateful. You know, you hear those kind of what I would call dated or very outdated opinions. Are you getting much pushback or do you feel that most organisations actually are fairly open to learn because they recognise the importance of change and that the world is a different place from the one that they entered when they came to work all those years ago?

Christina WenmanYeah, I get a lot of scepticism when I first walk in the room. Um, maybe not necessarily just about me, but whenever I ask people at the end they say, I'll be honest, I was very sceptical about this topic and hesitant to be accepting of this topic. And initially, but I think the key is helping people understand that it's not even about adapting or modifying your leadership style to this group of people. It's adapting your leadership style to the way the world is changing. And I think when I, when I share that and help people see that it's not just changing for this group of people, people tend to be more receptive. Um, and even the generational context, like helping people understand the generational context as well is, is really important. So typically people start out with that scepticism, but as we go on, they start to see that, okay, there are some aspects of connection that I can work on and, and improve. And my favourite thing too is 'cause I speak to a lot of, you know, round tables with different businesses. And even though all the examples I give are business related, I love when people see how it applies to their personal lives. So I go around at the end of the room or at the end of the day and do takeaways. And when people say, wow, I am going to use this with my team to become more connected. I'm going to use this to, you know, do lead better with the next generation, but I'm gonna take it home with my kids. I need to, to interact with my kids in a different way based on this. Um, so that's kind of my, my favourite. But yes, people start sceptical and then can

Alastair GreenerAnd, and, and what about, what about your generation? You are clearly a younger person coming into an organisation where the C-suites are gonna be predominantly quite a bit older than you probably, uh, gen X or Boomer. Do you get any of that kind of, um, who are you to tell us what do you know? You are so young that what I would call generational bias. I, I, is that something that's a real thing or is that just in our imagination?

Christina WenmanYeah, it's definitely, I think it's definitely there. Um, luckily I've gotten the chance to talk to people after our session and they will admit that they had that going into it. Um, and who knows whether that's a generational bias or if it is a life stage bias, right? Like, okay, this person is only, they, they aren't even old enough to have 30 years of experience because they're 25 or whatever it is. Um, but I think it almost gives an a level of an advantage as well that people's expectations are pretty low, I think, when, when they think about my generation, which is terrible and it's sad and I hope to change that standard. Um, but yeah, I do, I do see that scepticism and bias coming from that. But like I said, I think people having lower standards in scepticism can also be an opportunity.

Alastair GreenerYou know, I, I've loved this conversation because, you know, we've gained a huge amount talking to you, you know, understanding the difference between interaction and connection and, and actually the fact that it's been a deeper dive than I was expecting, actually, into how we truly connect with people. And, you know, you, you've talked about it a lot in what you were saying, that, you know, it's a basic human need that we all have. And it's great that we're now talking about it. And it's great that people are taking you seriously in your work. And I can see that you are going to be making a huge impact in, in, in many organisations. I want to ask you two final questions and of just very quick answers if you may. The first is, what is your advice to young people in terms of getting on with older generations to connect better with older generations? What kind of things can they do? And likewise, what can older generations do to connect with younger generations?

Christina WenmanSo to answer your second question first, I will say it is more important than ever to be authentic and real, especially in the current stage we're in with ai. Um, I'm seeing a lot of trends on Gen Z kind of pushing back against ai and I personally feel this kind of uncanny valley toward it. And I think the only way to, or the antidote to that is to be real and not let this strip away our humanness. Uh, that goes for both, both ends. So from the adults especially, just the most important thing I think is to be real. Not try to be cool or fit in or figure out what the next latest thing is, um, for Gen Z. Think. And go so many different paths. That's why I'm struggling to make it quick. Um. I think the same. I think being open to the wisdom and being, I should say the same and being open to the wisdom, um, and what we can learn from older generations as well. I think there's a very, uh, there's a mindset around like, okay, boomer. But I do think once we. Start with, I try not to say like the generic cliches, but so often the generic cliches are accurate, right? Like, start with curiosity, don't place assumptions. Um, all these things are what we need to do. Uh, but I just struggle repeating them because I know your audience has probably heard them so many times, but it's accurate, right? Be Yeah, but, and you're quite right. They need, it needs to be repeated. And it's what I talk about in my work as I know you do with yours. And, you know, we just need to get people to refocus on, on what their messaging is. Um, Christina, it's been phenomenal talking to you. I've really enjoyed your insights. You know, we are so aligned in many ways, but you phrased it in a different way and clearly from your perspective of connection.

Alastair GreenerSo thank you so much indeed for coming on the podcast today and for giving us that in depth perspective from a Gen Z about how we can all connect better. And I'm hoping that's exactly what people will do as a result of listening to. So thank you so much for being here today.

Christina WenmanYeah. Thank you. This has been great.

Alastair GreenerThank you and thank you for listening as well. Much appreciated. And we'll be back in a couple of weeks time with another podcast, another guest, and another topic. Bye for now. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.