Craft, Sound and What Technology Takes Away

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and showing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. Today I'm chatting to a highly experienced location and post-production sound engineer who has spent many years working across film and tv. And in fact, I've had the pleasure of working with him in my role as a TV presenter, so I know firsthand how much better he can make people sound even me. In this episode, we're going to be discussing the generational trends he's seeing in the sound recording and media industry, and we're also gonna talk about how new technology has transformed both the work and the people doing it. And finally, for people getting into the industry, he's gonna give us some advice, or for some Gen Zs give them some advice on entering the industry. So it's a great pleasure to chat today to Hirsh Patel. Hi, Hirsh.

Haresh PatelHello. How's it going?

Alastair GreenerUh, doing well. Yeah. It's, uh, I mean, you are not someone who normally likes to be in front of the camera.

Haresh PatelYeah, definitely. I'm much more comfortable behind the lens than, uh, in front of it. Um, that's my place. I know my place.

Alastair GreenerAnd I, and goodness knows how many shoots that, um, you and I have been on over the years. Um, but it, it, it's great to be chatting in a different context. And one of the things about the film and TV and media industry, there's a lot of time in between takes and between shots and resetting and so on, where you get to have conversations. And that's how you and I, uh, got chatting. We were working on a particular job in London as I recall, and you started talking about your work at the London Film Academy and your interaction with new generations emerging. And of course, my ears pricked up and thought, ha, we need to have a conversation about this in, in my podcast. So hence why you're here. But let's, let's go back a little bit first and talk about Resh, who you are in terms of your upbringing. Are you typical of your generation? Uh, first of all, which generation are you, do you know?

Haresh PatelWhich generation? Uh, I think technically I'm second generation, so my mom was, um, was an immigrant to the uk uh, from India. Um, and I was technically born in Kenya, but I was brought over when I was maybe one or so, so not consulted about these kind of things. Um, so like as good as practically, a visual generation or second generation. Um.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and what about your age generation?

Haresh PatelMy age generation is in now in, in my mid fifties. Um, this is where I

Alastair Greeneryou are very much a Gen X. And it, and it's interesting, that whole concept that you said, you know, we just moved and off we went. Where today there'll be far more of a consultation process and you would've been talked through it. Whereas today it's, you know, in, in your day when you were, uh, when you first uh, came here, it was very much, well, that's what we're doing. Off we go.

Haresh PatelYeah, the no consultation of a 1-year-old was, was required or

Alastair GreenerOh.

Haresh Patelfor, and, uh, I just got dragged along and this is where I've, uh, ended up.

Alastair GreenerAnd as a gen, gen X, you know, coming in, in, um, in, in into your childhood, what do you remember and what do you remember in terms of whether you were typical of that era? In other words, were you left alone just to find your own fun, make your own friends, don't come back until, um, the late evening. Um, just go on. Off you go, because both your parents were working.

Haresh PatelWell, there was definitely a lot of, um, having to look after yourself because there was a lot of drama and, uh, struggle happening at home. So yeah, up until the age of 10, obviously one is looked after as would, as you would with a child. Uh, but there was a lot of time where I didn't really fit in with my, my family members. So I was very much either pushed away or I excised myself and, and, uh, kept myself to myself and kept busy with my own little shenanigans and making toys and finding toys and playing with things the way that no one else wanted to play with me. So, uh, that's what happened. So yeah, lots of playing with.

Alastair GreenerAnd what about, what about at school? When you started going there, did you, were you, did you shine as a, as a student? Did you, were you into sound and media and technology?

Haresh PatelUm, oh man, that's a great question. In high school? Or are we talking about high school? Oh. Um, I think I've always been interested in sound and definitely art. Uh, those are the two things. Um, art and music and science, you know, really caught my attention pretty much in all, in every available way that was presented to me via school. So at uh, high school, I would regularly be the first in the caretakers would let me in, um, and I'd be the last to be kicked out. Um, usually from after school hanging out in, uh, my art room, um, and just hunkering down in there and drawing, keeping myself busy, scratching away. Um, yeah, I really enjoyed the peace and quiet of the art room all to myself with no other people there. And just the peace and quiet and sanctity and just get your head down into doing stuff.

Alastair GreenerAnd how much of that was with, without doing the psychotherapist's couch routine here, but how much was that a, a matter of escaping what was happening at home and how much was because you absolutely were so absorbed into what you were doing that you just didn't think about anything else?

Haresh PatelDefinitely both. I think there's, there's always gonna be an undercurrent of, uh, escapism. Uh, it wasn't massively popular at school. I was definitely one of the, uh, odd ones out. Um, and so art was an escape channel, so definitely that was what was happening At the same time, um, I've always been interested in drawing and art and painting and visual visual arts in general. So this was a great, uh, regular chapter in my life. A regular sort of, uh, meeting session with, with pencils and pens, that kind of thing.

Alastair GreenerAnd, you know, feeling a little bit of an outlier that, you know, and, and doing what you did. I mean, all of this will have framed who the Resh Patel is today. You know, that that's what happens. You know, our, our childhood makes a massive impact on who we are today. What about people, you know, um, other people at school? Did you, did you feel that you were very different? I mean, you said you weren't necessarily a particular popular child with loads and loads of friends around you. Um, but did you feel particularly different?

Haresh PatelI think I did. Yeah, I definitely got on with a bunch of people. It's not like I was, uh, the lno kid at the back talking to nobody. That's not true. Um, I, I feel I can get on with a bunch of, like a fairly wide range of people. Um, and that's really helped with my work, uh, over the last chapter with sound. With working in films you have to get on with people very quickly. So that was good. Um, I think it was, I just had a few, only a few sort of good friends. Very close friends, uh, and one of them, um, ended up inviting me to his local church. And I got into sort of, well, I got more into singing and, you know, hymns and that kind of thing. But we ended up setting up a, a, a music band. And that's how I really got locked into doing more studied things with sound in particular. It was always art and always science. Um, but it kind of blossomed in sound, which is a combination of art and science.

Alastair GreenerIt is amazing, isn't it? How things that happen, those serendipity moments when we're growing up and who we're around and how that really affects our life choices, um, later on. So how did you get into, or how did you focus your time, energy, and future, if you like, into being a sound engineer?

Haresh PatelUm, what could I give as a plausible answer to that? Um, I saved up for a Porter studio, um, back in the days of the golden age of analogue. So ho Yeah. Recording studios. Uh, obviously far beyond the budget of a bunch of teenagers. Um, so I somehow saved up for a portable porter studio based on cassette tapes, so you could get four tracks on this Porter studio. And that was, that really was the sort of igniting force that really got me locked into making sound recording sounds, things with processing microphones, electronics, bits of rubber bands, all that kinda stuff. Um, so yeah, a, a four chat recorder saved my life. That was the DJ that saved my life.

Alastair GreenerAnd if you, if, if you were young today, ssh, if you were growing up today as a late teenager, do you think you would be today all over? I mean, you are obviously as an adult and grown up and with all the experience you, you've, you've changed and adapted to technology, but do you think you would've absolutely run with it then? Um, it had this technology today been available to you?

Haresh PatelI think things would be, you can only guess at how different things could be. Um, 'cause there's still the, the steps one has to take with analogue equipment. There's the, there's the physicality of it. Um, now most teenagers have got, uh, a device, either a tablet or a phone, and there are millions of apps that you can use to make music, record, sound, edit, you know, fairly accomplished pieces, uh, on your phone, which is just, it's just magic. It's, it's amazing that it know the accessibility profile is completely different now compared to back in the day. And that has to be a good thing.

Alastair Greenersome people suggest that the older you get, the more almost technologically inept you become. You know, that's what some people would suggest and actually you become stuck with what you grew up with and what you were familiar with. And of course, we've gone from what you described, I think was beautifully analogue to a hyper digital world. How are you with technology today? Have you evolved as the technology's evolved? Have you done that kicking and screaming, or have you absolutely embraced it all the way along?

Haresh PatelI think it's always gonna be the case now that technology is moving so quickly and at such a widespread that no individual is ever gonna be able to be comprehensive. Uh, that's a real challenge. Um, keeping up with what's happening. The speed of change at the moment is, is very, it's a real thing. Um, so yeah, I, I guess there's, uh, as you get older, you sort of cut the groove of your way of working, you know, deeper and deeper as you continue with the way that you're working. And it's just expon, it's just harder to climb out of the groove that you've cut yourself as you get older. So you have to take a bit of effort to see what's going on, see what's either coming down the line or what people are using either software or hardware wise or, um, process wise. Um, and it's nice to hear other people and how other people do things. So that's, that's a really good way of discovering new toys and new, new functions.

Alastair GreenerI'm not sure you actually answered the question there, to be honest with you. Uh, because what I, what I really wanted to get to grips with, uh, you know, I, I deal as, you know, with stereotypes and, you know, and I don't wanna put people into pigeonholes. So one of the purposes of this podcast is to get to really understand people and the image that some Gen Xs have is of a reluctance towards new technology. So, um, do, do you, do you, do you love it? Do you put up with it? Or is it one of those things? You know what, I just need to do it because if I'm gonna be successful in my role, I need to be aware of it and use it.

Haresh PatelUh, if you're asking me personally, just me, I think I put up with a lot. Um, I seek a few things about new technologies, but, um, I, I have to confess the classic Gen X thing of, you know, sort of not sticking to what you know, which is a good thing, but, uh, not necessarily we do it like this, but, uh, as the co what's the way to explain it? Why am I struggling with words here? If you've made many mistakes, you realise that there is a, there is a reason for the process. So, uh, when you're young, you don't have that body of mistakes to, uh, analyse your actions or analyse your direction. So you are going to make fresh to you mistakes older people, or the older you get, the larger the body of work you've got that says, this doesn't work because of X, Y, and Z. This doesn't work because A, B and C is not in place, so we can't do that. Uh, and you get there quicker and that might look like, you know, we just do it like this. Uh, and I think it's a communication problem personally for me.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and we'll come to that in terms of, you know, dealing with younger people on set and, um, you know, the, the fact that you are, you know, there will be people who are older, more experienced than you and what your apprenticeship period was like versus the apprenticeship period of those coming into the industry now. But I think really what you were alluding to before is that as older people, you have almost a quite healthy scepticism about new gadgets, new technology, because you've seen things come and go, and therefore you want to be pretty assured that actually this technology is a right. B is gonna work, and c, it's gonna be around a while, so therefore it's worth the investment of your time learning how to use it.

Haresh PatelI mean, that's a real thing if you're paying for equipment and equipment is expensive. Uh, but we can come to the way expensive equipment has changed car completely. Um, it's true, like if you put, if you feel the investment in equipment for a particular job or a particular task, you're gonna be a little bit more mindful. You're gonna be proportionately more mindful about is this the right thing? Does this do the job that I'm asking it to do? Um, and you know, you have to come to, you have to analyse that question first. Uh, what is the work that you

Alastair GreenerYeah, of course you're not going to be seduced into buying the latest new sparkly thing that's there. You're going to have, as I say, you know, a, a reasonably sceptic view on it just to make sure. Um, but the challenge of course is that you still need to keep up and in your world, technology is massively important, um, because your clients, the people you work with are going to expect you to have the very best and the very latest. And you, you gonna almost need a reason that if you're not using the latest technology that actually know what I'm using is better. Do Those are kind of comments and, um, discussions you have with people on set.

Haresh PatelThese are very real things. Yeah. People expect a particular, uh, landscape of equipment. Um, and one is looked down upon if you don't have that recorder or that microphone. Um, so yeah, that's an uphill challenge. Uh, on the other side, there are so many highly underrated companies making the same equipment, um, and they're, they're unsung heroes. So I like finding those kind of, uh, manufacturers and using that kind of kit, um, because I like experimenting with, with cheaper but also nicer, more, uh, niche products, um, that really get the job done as well. Um, and it's one of those things where.

Alastair Greenerthing is you, you know, you are an expert in your field so you know what sounds good and what's not, and you know, you have that ability to be discerning where somebody who's younger, less experienced, isn't necessarily going to be, have that same level of focus to towards the difference.

Haresh PatelAnd that's what's good about traditions and we do it like this kind of people, or we do it like this kind of, um, statements and, you know, explanations because those pieces of equipment have been field tested numbers of times. So they do get the job done. And if you are doing that kind of job, this is a zero brain option that other people have worked out for you. So go for it. Do use those things at exactly the same time. There's a whole bunch of other factors that go into equipment. Um, like your own personal budget, your own personal way of working things. The way you hear things, um, is bespoke to you. There is nobody on the planet that hears things like you do. Um, which means there's nobody in the universe that hears things like you do as far as we know. Um, and that's a really interesting way of, um, that, that, that might be an interesting reminder to not get too stuck in your ways. I like to say sceptical, not cynical. Um, it's okay to be sceptical. It's important to be sceptical. Uh, it's, it's worth keeping a check on your own cynicism.

Alastair GreenerAnd actually at this point I, I'd really like to bring in the generational aspect to it, because the world that you entered is very different to the world that young people are entering today. Your work at the London Film Academy, which is I think what really triggered, um, the, the idea of having you on this podcast. What are you seeing with the young sound engineers today that's maybe different from what you experienced? And of course, it's important here to divide or to distinguish between a life stage of being just a young person versus, no, this is actually truly generational. This is something that they are experiencing that nobody else would've experienced before. So what's your take on what you are seeing when you go and work with your students, uh, at, uh, the, the academy?

Haresh PatelUm, the democratisation of equipment is a glorious thing. Uh, you can like it or you can not like it and you can gate keep, that kind of thing. But one of my, one of the students I was, uh, working with, uh, she's got the same recorder that I've got. Um, so we've got a generational gap, but she's using the same piece of equipment that I'm using on a regular basis. So we've got an instant bridge between us that we can talk about the same piece of kit, um, and how to get the best ring, the, the best quality out of it. Um, and all the other all talk about all of the other conditions that go with. But that's a fantastic thing that just wouldn't, that absolutely didn't happen with me when I was young. I would go into recording studios and there's nothing in there that I could afford except maybe the, the, the cheap donkey microphone at the back. Um, because equipment was so fabulously expensive and also gate kept, then, um, it's not the same landscape at all. Now you can set yourself, young people are setting themselves up with not terrible equipment that does a reasonably good job, um, that can get them well past the door if they continue the path of experience and failure and getting things wrong and oh yeah, that does not work. And all those kind of things that you build up that, that book of tricks. Um, but it is a fantastic thing that, you know, for a relatively small, uh, cost these days, you know, percentage wise of what things were like in the seventies and eighties. Like, you can get a lot done, which is amazing. So now we can talk more about, we can get really stuck into ideas and finessing technical, uh, processes and things to look out for. And all of the brain work that, uh, you can't buy are off, off equipment or you can't get it in a book. You have to live it and survive it.

Alastair GreenerAnd how are they as students compared to you when you were their age in terms of the level of interest? You talked about the fact that they have access to equipment that you would've never have had access to, and they can actually buy their own and go off and do stuff by themselves and so on. But you know, I guess first of all, how are they like as students and are you still getting the same amount of people interested? Do you think there's still that same level of interest in the art of sound?

Haresh PatelThat's a good question. I don't know if it's changed that much. Just the, the volume of people has changed because there are more schools, there are more, uh, platforms for education. YouTube is the best. Um, but you know, there are more schools that you can attend to apply to and attend at for learning any aspect of filmmaking. That's amazing. That's a really fantastic thing. Uh, the, but the, the objective proportion of people I think is probably still quite small. Sound is definitely a niche subject matter to get into, to want to get into. So it's always gonna be the sort of the niche group that want to talk about sound. Um, and that's half my

Alastair GreenerWhat are the bigger, what's the biggest message that you give to your students? What do you try and get across and how well is that received?

Haresh PatelUm, the, well, the plight of all of us, me included, uh, the plight of all of us of our times is distraction. The spectrum of distraction possibilities now is nothing like what it was in the seventies and 80. We definitely had a lot of things to keep us occupied. Uh, now there are millions of things to, uh, be sucked into. And, you know, all of these brain suck, time suck, uh, things that are happening all around us. So I always try to, um, evangelise the idea that you are going to, you are, you are walking in a landscape of almost permanent distraction, permanent diversion from the path in capital letters, whatever that path is. But your path today is sound. Your path this week is sound. You know, whatever you can do just to reduce the noise and focus here, uh, will be in your benefit. Um, and it's really hard to do that these days for all of us in whatever your age, whatever's happening in your life, just 'cause the technical, technological age we live in at the moment. So I push for that. I try and try.

Alastair GreenerDo you think some of the skills that you have in your generation learn might be lost with technology, with AI and with, you know, all of the, you know, the incredible advancements that have been made, but the human factor, this skill of really listening and hearing something, you know, I'm reminded of people's desire to go back to vinyl and hear those little scratches and hear those, you know, those little imperfections which make it almost, you know, more enjoyable. How do you feel about all of that?

Haresh PatelYeah, that's a, that's a real situation. That's a real situation for right now, for 2026. Uh, the more computers, um, the more computers do the thinking for you, the more you can just kind of press a button and have it go. Um, what that robs people of is the decision making process, the analysis process, and the failure process. I think those are the three things that modern technology, uh, I dunno if it's a deliberate conscious, we will take it away from the people kind of thing. Um, but it's a real danger. If computers fix everything for you, you are less liable to want to choose to fix it yourself or learn what a fix even is. The, the problem doesn't exist. If a button can take it, take the problem away.

Alastair GreenerYeah. And the challenge I guess with, with, with, with any form of technology and any craft is actually what skills does it matter that we don't really keep up with because actually technology and other things will happen. For example, none of us use a slide rule anymore, and for those who have no idea what a slide rule is, it was used, uh, for maths. And, and clearly I actually have one now that I take into, um, especially Gen Z groups to say, you know, this is what change is, and it's perfectly demonstrated by that. But what things, you know, the, there will be things, it doesn't actually matter that we don't know how to do it anymore. But then there are other things that, for goodness sake, we definitely do not want to lose them in the annals of history because it's too important that people, um, still know how to do certain

Haresh PatelYeah, a hundred percent. The undo button is simultaneously the best tool and the worst thing. It's most the best and the worst thing to happen to software and editing and decision making. So I learned to edit on tape. Um, and with tape, you physically cut it with a razor blade. That's an edit. Uh,

Alastair Greenerremember those

Haresh Patelyeah, and you cut once and you cry forever if you don't get it right. 'cause there's no undo, there's, there's no getting back. Making it stick together again. You can stick it together again, but it'll be a clunky glue. Um, join. So the idea of, uh, measure twice Cut once, which is very familiar to anyone working with wood and, you know, physical materials. That's the same with audio as well. So the physicality of working with physical audio, uh, I think is sadly lost in the sense of it's really, it's easy and hard, but the thing that has been distanced for young people is the decision making process of editing. Do I want to cut here? Is this good? Is this a nice cut? Am I doing this correctly? Those kind of things, uh, are minimised with software and digital editing. And the undo button means you can just go back a hundred steps or an infinite amount of steps really easy, which is fantastic. Um, but what it, uh, atrophies is the commitment, the decision making, and the commitment. So I adv, I evangelise a lot about, uh, you know, think about what you are cutting and why and treat it as a physical material. It will be really painfully slow now, but I guarantee you it will make your life so much faster. You'll be a better person going forward.

Alastair GreenerYeah, I guess it's that balance, isn't it? Between real, practical, useful skills that we use and we need to know about and we can use for the future versus actually, that's just a bit of nostalgia. It's a lovely thing to think about, but actually, is it really necessary anymore?

Haresh PatelThat's totally fine. If it's nostalgia, it's nostalgia. Uh, if you like what that so-called nostalgia process or equipment brings to you as an artist, uh, as a creative, then you should never let anybody old or young tell you that's not right for you.

Alastair GreenerI think that's a wonderful place to finish actually, because I think that kind of sums up, you know, the, the way that we really look to the future and, you know, we allow the advancements without holding too tightly to the past because that could actually slow us down a little bit. Um, you know, it's been a really niche conversation talking about sound, but I think it's been really immensely enjoyable and I've learned a lot and I, I, I love hearing that perspective and, and it's, I think it's always lovely to hear from people who have a real craft and to see how that craft is evolving and changing with new generations. So Resh, thank you very much indeed for being with us today.

Haresh PatelThank you so much. I've really enjoyed this conversation and um, yeah, I hope somebody listening out there, uh, gets a little twig of information that they can take away for themselves.

Alastair GreenerThank you and hopefully it's also inspiring for future sound engineers as well. Thank you, SSH, and thank you for joining us as well. We'll be back in another two weeks, uh, with another guest and another podcast. Bye for now.