What Professional Looks Like Now: Leadership Across the Generations

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can all build stronger intergenerational connections. I'm thrilled to say that my guest today is a leadership consultant and coach who works with senior leaders and organisations across the UK and amea, helping them navigate fast paced, high stakes environments whilst developing more intentional leadership and creating high performance teams. Today we are gonna be talking about a multitude of things, including how different generations approach learning and development in today's workplace, how her own approach to coaching and training has evolved over the years, and then what employees of different generations now expect from their leaders. So, Zoe Thompson, it's great to talk to you today.

Zoe ThompsonThank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Alastair GreenerWell, we've got a lot to talk about because, you know, we are in a, in an era where leadership has never been so important and probably likewise, it's probably never been so complex, and we're gonna come to that in a while. I wanna start off by just talking a little bit about you and how you, how your life has been framed and how that links to your generation. Where do you stand with your generation? How do you think you fit in with it?

Zoe ThompsonI think I fit quite a lot of the stereotypes. So I'm a Gen Xer, uh, on the cusp of the millennial. So I think, I think I fit a lot of the stereotypes to be honest. I'm definitely that key latch independent generation want to do it all myself. Yeah, I think there's lots, whenever, I'm always sceptical, uh, about these things normally. Uh, but actually I think I am quite a typical Gen Xer

Alastair GreenerAnd, you know, at the, but at the same time, being, being, if you like a younger Gen Xer, you'll probably have some of those millennial traits. And I certainly think your, um, your desire for, for, um, collaboration, for working with others, leading teams. That's very much a millennial trait.

Zoe ThompsonI, I think it's interesting because I started employment at 18 working with people who were older than me. So I was exposed to older people at that kind of young age. So whereas my age group were going off to university and what I felt at that time, I was working in the police service, it was a very serious, very responsible job with older people. And yet my age group were out getting drunk doing things that university students do. And it felt like that gap really split at that time. Uh, and I felt, felt very, very separated from other people in my age group and was identifying a lot more with people who were a lot older. Yet now I spend more time with people who are younger. And so it is interesting how I think sometimes it shapes my outlook. I think it sometimes broadens my thinking that little bit more to being and spending time with different people. I think it does have an influence. So I think my sort of 18 plus 20 years in my twen early twenties into my thirties, I was with much older people, very serious, very kind of, um, professional roles. And then I think now I do seem to spend time with younger people. So I think it's, I, I think that definitely has an influence and I, yeah, I think there's lots around the millennial generation stereotypes that I also recognise in my own behaviours and, and approaches and ways of thinking.

Alastair GreenerA couple of things came outta that for me. The first one, which I'd really like to talk about is slightly going off track, but I think it's really important for people's perspective to understand how things have changed. Because a lot of what I talk about is understanding the generations and understanding that their lives as they were growing up, what were they dealing with growing up. And I think that way we can have a greater empathy for each other if we do so. I'm just thinking about as an 18-year-old, uh, young lady going in, working in the police force, which I can imagine in those days was very different to the way it is now. And I can imagine that was a bit of a baptism by fire for you.

Zoe ThompsonYeah, that's a huge understatement. I, I was 18, I thought I knew everything as you, as you do. At 18 had done my A levels and I knew I wanted to be a police officer. That's all I ever wanted to do as, as a, a young person. But I, at that point, they weren't recruiting. You had to be 18 and a half, and back then you didn't have to have a degree. You just had to have life experience, although nobody was ever quite sure what life experience meant in that context. And so I got a job at the local police station and was public facing. So I wasn't in a back office role. I was in uniform on the front desk of the local police station dealing with members of the public. So there's no Google, so this was 1997, so this was the year Google was just starting to come in. So there wasn't, and there you couldn't Google for the answers. They had almanack books. So if you needed to find out the law, if you didn't know it, you had to use the books or walk around the station until you found an old cop who did. And yeah, I mean, yeah, baptism by fire, the technology wasn't there. It was all around interacting with people, asking questions, asking more questions, listening to the answers, listening to what was said, what wasn't said, and then taking it from there. So there wasn't even a training course, you just followed the person that was on duty. You watched what they did, they watched what you did, and then you were pretty much left to it. So it,

Alastair GreenerAnd what a

Zoe ThompsonI, a huge difference. Um, so now there's full training courses and, and everything else. But yeah, at 18 I was in uniform standing and dealing with members of the public with absolutely anything that the public would come in and report. So this was before call centres, it was just the phone was on the desk and you either answered the phone or you dealt with the person that was stood at the counter. So you dealt with anything and everything, and literally anything and everything. So yeah, big eyes, wide open at that point.

Alastair GreenerI'm sure that has served you very well and, and actually looking at that experience that interacting with older and younger people, and again, you're going to encounter people from a multiplicity of backgrounds as well. I'm sure that served you really well when you come to the work that you do now, because you would have a greater empathy and understanding for other people and, and probably maybe an early acceptance of difference that people at that stage might not have had.

Zoe ThompsonYeah, that great observation. I, I met, it taught me to be able to communicate with different people, different backgrounds, different lifestyles, different ages and people would describe and have described over the years of being that chameleon, of being able to blend in and have conversations with different people in, in different ways. And that's definitely served me incredibly well as a coach of being able to sit and have conversations. And I, I also think there's an element of not having that judgement because I've worked and dealt with and had conversations with so many people that you understand that people do the best they can with the skills that they've got and the knowledge that they have. And, and I think that is the empathy that has served me really well and it served me really well in leadership and serves me really well as a coach as well. And, and I think that's what people are asking for more so now with leadership, that empathetic leader, the human centred approach as opposed to that transactional directional leadership that we've traditionally known. So yeah, whilst it was a baptism of fire, that is a skillset I don't think any training course could teach me. And it's been a gift for sure.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and in, in many respects, that's possibly where the young today are at a disadvantage because, although on one hand it was probably quite tough to go through at the time, but it served you well. Whereas today may be some people would suggest that young people actually, the, the transition through the, um, various stages of life in many respects, us, you know, it's more supportive. There's more, um, resources there for them than maybe the were for you where you've just thrown in at the deep end. So how do you navigate that when you're dealing with, because we, we met when you were leading a, a relatively young group, um, going through, um, you know, to to, to looking at, in, in the world of accountancy and looking at future leaders. How do you work with them to give them some of that resilience that you had and to give them that some of the, i, I guess the express life experience that you had.

Zoe ThompsonI think with leadership it does open up opportunities for different experiences. So I, one of the commonalities with leadership is that people are working with people and so the experiences and the challenges that they have are often the same. I do see in discussions different approaches with different age groups sometimes, but I think sometimes that's perhaps more shaped by experience as opposed to age generation. What's been interesting with the amea, uh, future leaders programme is the difference with culture and how culturally different they are in their approaches and how they communicate and expectations and challenges, and that's been very interesting. So whilst they've been in a similar age group, culturally, it's been very diverse. So it's been very interesting to facilitate those discussions when you've got different people from different places who have very different approaches in, in how they deal with it. And I think that's also been one of the great benefits of the programme in that it's opened up others to explore doing things a little bit differently. So for those that would perhaps have a softer approach, they've had their eyes open to actually, others are challenging it perhaps more assertively and, and those that would come in a little bit harder have opened their eyes into what might happen if they approach it with a slightly more nurturing approach. So it's interesting, you've got ages into the mix. Then you've got different gender nuances and then cultural nuances as well that whilst they're all in the same sector in a similar age group, there are still lots of different discussions in the room of how they might approach it differently. And I think in terms of the training

Alastair Greenerand that's, sorry. Yeah.

Zoe ThompsonI was gonna say in times of the training course, what my role is, is to expose them to those discussions in a safe space. Safe space to be able to talk through how they would like to approach it, the benefits, the risks, and then have those discussions to explore that in, in that safe space before they have to deal with it potentially in, in the real life workplace.

Alastair GreenerAnd one of the things I talk a lot about in my work is what I call the five circles of generational influence. In other words, you know, it's not just your generation. There's lots of other factors and one of them being nationality and even Gen Zs, which are more closely aligned internationally because of social media and so on. Um, it's, it's, it's interesting that even then there's a lot of cultural differences, certainly culture in terms of gender, culture, in terms of, you know, work ethic and approaches to work and so on. What are the biggest challenges for you dealing with different generations in, in the workplace in terms of the kind of messaging that you need to get across and to bring people together because they might already have these preconceptions about each other.

Zoe ThompsonGood question. The, I mean, the answer that comes to my mind may not actually be the answer to the question that you are asking. I think the biggest challenge difference is in what professional looks like. So you've got different leaders who have different expectations of what good looks like. And that is probably one of the biggest standouts in terms of the different generations of leaders, of how they feel people should show up to work and engage with each other in the workplace, and how they should communicate, especially if they're communicating to somebody who is in a position of authority or somebody who is senior to them. So I think gen, what I notice is with Gen X, uh, and the older millennials, there's an expectation if you're speaking to somebody who's more senior, it's approached in a certain way. Whereas I think the younger millennials, gen Z, more flat in terms of, they speak to everybody with that similar, that this is me, this is how I communicate, and, and this is how I communicate regardless of who I'm communicating with. And that makes very interesting workshops and, and conversations because for me, a really good leader is able to diversify their communication and, and their approach with people. And so that's, that's always an interesting conversation in, in the mix, which I'm not sure answers the question that you actually have, but that is what, what sprung to mind when you asked.

Alastair GreenerI think it does actually, because, you know, you've talked about preconceptions and the way that people see, and, and I think the, the big issue there is the way that people are judging one another because of their approach, which might be natural to them, but to another generation, it comes across in a different way. I remember I was working with a group, um, about six months ago where somebody came into the room who was a Gen Z and bluntly was very casually dressed. Um, was probably not, the snappiest dresser was, wasn't looking the smartest, you know, the, the hair wasn't necessarily all combed and manicured and so on and so forth. Yet this person was leading a, a big organisation, was incredibly successful and was, um, revered within the organisation. Yet other people coming in saw them, saw this individual very differently because of the preconceptions they have. And unfortunately that unconscious bias is, is something that, well, by very nature it's difficult to deal with. Is that something that you see quite a lot of?

Zoe ThompsonYeah, absolutely. I'm, I think one of the workshops that I have done within the last couple of years, probably the most casually dressed person in the room was the most senior person in the room you would never have known. And I, that's it's, it fascinates me. It fascinates me that I, I think there's lots in those approaches that I think they do really well. And there's a, there's, as with always, there's the different, different sides of that sliding spectrum isn't there? And then there's probably a sweet spot in the middle of what, what good looks like when it's in balance. I mean, I, from my point of view, I find that fascinating because my workplace experience was very hierarchical and it was very clear who was senior because it was on their shoulders. And there was an expectation that if they were of a rank that was senior to you, you would address them in a certain way. Traditionally, you would stand up when they walked into the room. That's the level of, of how that was. However, whilst I was in a senior position, because I was not in at this point, I wasn't in a uniform role. So I would, I would dress professionally in my opinion, but I would dress how I would expect a senior leader to, to dress. However, I was younger than most of my peers at that level. I was female and I was responsible for police officers. However, I would not get spoken to with the same level of respect or authority because there was an assumption that being the female in the room, again, this is the unconscious bias, that because I was a younger female in the room and perhaps dressed in a slightly more casual way, although I think it was particularly that I was somebody's executive assistant or I was of a, a junior rank and I would be spoken to in a certain way. And so yeah, the, the, I think. People dressing in a much more casual way and, uh, speaking to each other in a slightly more even and equal way has its advantages, is it just fascinates me because it's not a world that I have worked in. So I'm very much used to, you know, before working in coaching and consulting, walking into a room and being very clear who the boss is because it would be, it would be very clearly identified. Whereas now I can walk into a room and I am unable to differentiate either because we know that leaders are not defined by age. They're now not defined by a dress code or their approach, or there isn't necessarily anything that helps them to stand out in, in the room. So I think that welcomes. A different style of communication, which I think has its benefits. Is it, it just, sometimes it just blows my mind a little bit because it's so different to what I'm, what I'm used to.

Alastair GreenerAnd what about the future? What trends are you seeing? You know, where do you think you know, or, or how do you think the leaders of tomorrow will present themselves? Um, because let's be honest, the leaders of tomorrow are the people who maybe aren't always treated seriously today in as Gen Zs. You know, they are seen as, you know, they want a, a perfect work life balance. They want flexibility. They're seeking a lot of things that the managers and leaders of today, um, some of them are struggling with. How do you think they're going to deal with that when they have teams of their own who are seeking that? Do you think they will be empathetic and say, yeah, no, that's fine. But of course they will have then senior managers who will be saying, Hey, hang on a second. You need to get the younger people to do X, Y, and Z, because of course at the moment they're millennials in that sandwich position, but Gen Z are very quickly moving into that. So how are they gonna cope with it, do you think?

Zoe ThompsonThat's the million dollar question, I think, isn't it? So I think it's the human equivalent of where will AI end up. I think it's the, how will we manage the behaviours of the humans and the behaviours of technology. And at some point it would be very in, I wonder whether it will happen in, in our lifetime, but I it, I think it's the million dollar question. I wonder whether the pendulum will swing, because I think historically we see with generations, I mean from a a parenting point of view, I think we see the pendulum swing, don't we? We get a very strict parenting generation that generates a very, perhaps la I was gonna say lax, may maybe more laid back, more gentle liberal. Thank you. That's a much more appropriate word. Uh, and then that then generates a slightly more strict generation of parents because that didn't work for them. So they tend to go the opposite way. And I wonder whether that will happen with leadership as well. There's always a balance. What I say to leaders is that your responsibility is to balance the needs of the individuals within your team with the needs of the business. And that is your responsibility to make sure those two are in balance. And it will be interesting to see how they balance that out as organisations and workplaces change with how humans. Shift their approach to work because it is, it's the mindset to work, isn't it? The work life balance and putting their values at the front and centre, putting people at the front and centre works well on a human level that is also balancing the needs of the business. And it will be interesting to see how, how that shifts and how the pendulum swings as each generation starts sitting on those boards and being the decision makers and influencing the rest of the business. I don't know that I, I can predict where it is going in the same way that I don't know that I can predict where AI is going, but I know it's moving very, very quickly and the leaders who are leading well are flexing and adapting as things are shifting and changing. The ones who are struggling are the ones that are perhaps in denial with what is needed or very much stuck in their old ways of doing things, which means they're becoming a square peg in a round hole. So I think those,

Alastair GreenerYeah, and I,

Zoe Thompsonindustry are leading well, uh, uh, softening the edges of their square peg, recognising they need to change how they lead to fit into what is now a round hole, what it will be in the next 10 years. Who knows?

Alastair GreenerI'd like to finish off, um, by just asking your advice that, you know, in terms of, for you speaking to the younger generations and the other way round, and let's start with the other way round. What advice do you suggest or what do you give to, um, more o older generational leaders in terms of encouraging the new leaders to emerge, but also just to create that cohesive workforce in 2026? What are the some of the key things that you are suggesting that the older generations do to engage the younger generations?

Zoe ThompsonGreat question because we know that engagement is at its all time lowest. Uh, for me, the conversations that I have with people bring it down to the very basic human psychology because ultimately we are dealing with humans. And yes, there will be things that are unique to that individual. We're still dealing with human psychology. So if we look at the self-determination theory, we know that individuals in the workplace need to be confident in their competence, have autonomy, and that sense of sense of relatedness and belonging. We also know that people are shaped by their values and by their needs. So if we can meet those values and needs, which means we need to understand our individuals. So we need to ask more questions. We need to understand the people that we're working with, and we need to recognise that competence, autonomy, and relatedness are really important, which in a world of hybrid working is one of the biggest challenges. So we need to approach things differently. You know, the, the way that the workplaces are is changing. We need to be open to doing things differently. What worked even two years ago, five years ago, is not gonna work now. So we ha humans are still operating from a psychology perspective in the same way. But how we approach that and engage with that is going to be really important. So ask more questions. Understand the individual that is in front of you and what makes them tick, what is important to them. Because if you speak then to that, then you are going to increase that engagement. Ultimately, from a leadership perspective, the person sitting in front of you needs to know they're valued, incredibly important, not just that their work is valued, although they need to know that too. They need to know that they as an individual are valued. They need to know their work is valued and they need to know where they're going. So they all fit into those very basic human psychology, but they're not conversations that people are having, which is why engagement is dropping.

Alastair GreenerAnd the same question for young emerging leaders. What advice do you give them to get buy-in from their Gen X boomer bosses and C-suites so that they can be effect leaders? That they can bridge that generation gap, which, uh, we all talk about so that they actually have evolution rather than revolution, because we know that's what happens if you don't allow evolution to take place. So what advice are you giving to those younger leaders?

Zoe ThompsonOh, great question. Great questions. Today it's under understand what's working in your, in your business or in your organisation. Look at the leaders who are leading well, who inspire you and who you aspire to lead. In a similar way, we're modelling, not mirroring, but look at who, who is leading in a way that you respect and you admire. What is it that they are doing differently that you want to bring into your own kind of leadership toolbox? It it more, I think it always comes down to communication and more conversations, understanding what people need. People are, people are fear-based, self preservation, self-protection. So if they are not on board or they're digging their heels in a little bit, there's quite often a fear there. Fear of judgement , fear of failure. But it's that self preservation, self-protection. I think what I do notice is that leadership is changing in that, whereas before you came into an organisation, you did a certain role for a certain number of years. If you were a high performer in that role, you would get promoted into a leadership role and you would do that level for a certain number of years, and then if you were a high performer in that, you would get promoted and so on and so forth. What is happening now is that there isn't that natural group. We're recognising, thankfully, that leadership skills are a completely different set of skills to those who are high performers in their job. So what we're seeing is more people getting promoted at an earlier age and with less experience, but also the working world is changing so rapidly that you could have been in an organisation for 20 years and you will not know anything more than somebody who's been there for six months because so many things are changing, and I think that is a threat, perceived threat to those who are at a senior level because they can't keep up. And historically, leaders who are of that age group would've been leaders in a world where you had to know more, you had to have all of the answers, you had to have the experience, and everybody looked at you to know more and make those decisions. And people aren't looking to them in the same way anymore because also they don't know. So I, I think there's a, a perceived threat to certain people at a certain level because leadership is changing, the workplace is changing technology, and the way people are showing up is changing and they don't have all of the answers. They're not the most experienced in the room. So I think recognise that, recognise that there's a, a genuine fear there. Self-preservation, self preservation, self-protection, and that if they are perhaps a little bit more sceptical or not jumping in and being excited about things as you are, ask them what their concerns are, ask them what their worries are. And as I'll say, with any of these challenges, meet, try and meet them where they're at, understand where they're coming from, and then you can slowly coax them towards where you are at and bring them on board.

Alastair GreenerIt, it, it's almost like you're leading, uh, people ahead of you and the leading the people who are coming after you. You are having to manage in and lead in both directions. And, um, I I think we, we've um, certainly given people a lot to think about in this episode. And that's exactly what we want to do because the world is changing. It's changing very fast, and who knows what's around the corner and none of us know. But the one thing we do know is that change is here and it's always going to be the constant and we have to adapt with it. Uh, Zoe, it is been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Um, I knew you'd be a brilliant guest and you'd give us lots of insights, so thank you for sharing them. And, uh, I wish you all the best in your work and, uh, and this very fast changing world of leadership, um, that, uh, I, I, I think there's a lot of work to be done there, and I know you'll be at the forefront of it. So, uh, so Thompson, thank you so much.

Zoe ThompsonThank you so much.

Alastair GreenerAnd thank you for listening and watching for this episode of the Generationally Speaking Podcast. I'll be back again in two weeks with another guest. Another topic. Bye for now. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.