Dr. Lynda Shaw: The Science Behind Why We Struggle to Understand Other Generations

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello, welcome back to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast. This is where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and share practical tips so that we can all connect better between generations. Today, I'm thrilled that we've got a fabulous guest who is on a mission to make sure that her grandbabies have a decent planet to live on. So she's mentoring geniuses to communicate their much needed ideas. She's also extracting, but apparently I'm not allowed to ask what genius, uh, ideas from unsuspecting non genius people. Uh, then she is driven to keep understanding why people do In her day job, she's a behavioural neuroscientist, leadership psychologist, genius mentor and adventure traveller. Oh, and she also runs online programmes, of which I have been on one. It's a great pleasure to introduce Dr Linda Shaw.

Lynda ShawHello Alastair, how are you doing?

Alastair GreenerI'm doing fabulously well, lovely to see you, and I'm going to start like I start all of these podcasts by asking people about their generation and you are a baby boomer, so you're born somewhere between 1946 and 1964. We won't go into any more details than that. But what we will say is that there are certain things that are associated with that generation, maybe being, um, a bit traditional, maybe being stoic, maybe, um, being resilient. But forget necessarily them, but what kind of things do you think you do fall into the same idea, thoughts, processes of a baby boomer? And where do you think you, you're actually a bit different?

Lynda ShawOh, well, my ambition in life is to always be an outlier. So, um, you're probably the wrong person to ask, Alastair. However, I know that you've done seriously good research and you have got a delicious new book out that everybody's got to read. So, I would be desperate to read it too. So, you mentioned three things there, traditional, stoic and resilient. Well, I reckon two out of three is not bad. Um, I, I do, um, I am stoic. I am resilient, um, but I'm not very traditional. So, um, but to be honest with you, um, I wonder if baby boomers. are traditional now, but they weren't in their upbringing. So,

Alastair GreenerI think that's a really good point because you think about it. Baby boomers, they were the, I mean, I think they were one of the most disruptive generations to have ever lived. When you think what happened during the 60s and the 70s, you know, all of the things that happened while they were growing up. So yes, you're absolutely right. They certainly weren't at the time.

Lynda ShawWell, I mean, if you think about it, the birth control pill became widely used if people wanted to around the world in 1960. Um, St. Martin Luther King with his exceptionally wonderful speech, I Have a Dream, happened. Um, there were demonstrations on the streets about anti nuclear war and anti Vietnam war. So, um, the baby boomers really, um, especially in those early teenage years, um, were, um, idealists. They were at the forefront of all of these massive changes and real changes and important changes. So I'm wondering if Um, we are all, um, as we, our brain was pruned in those, those, those times when we are early teenagers and, you know, the, the, the brain is, is doing that re, re shuffling that it does and needs to do. I'm wondering if perhaps we are, um, we've, we've wired our brain accordingly and we are always like that, except life experiences have buried that and, uh, but underneath perhaps we still are idealists, but perhaps, I don't know, um, for me. I am definitely an ideas person and I'm definitely open minded and wanting the next shiny new ball, so maybe I am an idealist.

Alastair GreenerBut what about growing up? Did you feel that you were the same as people around you or were you an outlier then too?

Lynda ShawNo, I was um, I, I, I have a friend still who was my best friend at school. And she says to me, Linda, you did never fit it in. Thanks, Jo. Um, so basically, um, no, I, I am a bit of a square peg in a round hole. I, I, perhaps that's an indication of my upbringing too, my personal upbringing. I'm an only child, so I had no siblings. So therefore, there was an awful lot of focus on me as the only child. Which, um, one could say I was a spoiled brat, but I actually wasn't, because my folks didn't have very much money at all, but I was very much, um, the center of their attention, um, so that would probably have made me, um, a bit of a rebel. Yeah, a bit of a rubble. I

Alastair Greenermean, certainly the way that you're brought up in that environment will have made a huge impact. And I don't know why I'm saying that to you because you're the neuroscientist. You know only too well how those formative years and the way that you are interacting with those around you, you know, makes a huge difference.

Lynda ShawWell, it does because, um, The way our brain is hardwired from birth, that most things we can't change. We're hardwired, for instance, um, to a bird is hardwired to build a nest. We're hardwired for language, but most of it is softwired, which means we can change it, which means it's malleable, which means it's flexible. So if you think about how the brain is softwired, it's softwired from the bottom up, which is our DNA and our immune system. Um, and we thought that our DNA was once our destiny. We now know it's not because of epigenetics. So we can change those things. Then you've got the top down wiring, which is all about our thoughts and emotions and beliefs and that those sorts of things. And then you've got the influences on the way our brain is softwired from our social environment upbringing, environmental upbringing. So if you could then add that in to when we are young teenagers and our brain is pruning and reorganizing itself, then you start to realize how. All of these influences really make a difference in the way that we think and behave. And indeed, at those same years, our friends become more important than our parents and our teachers, because we have to belong to our peer group. So, so therefore that what is going on in our environment, what is going on with our peer group is going to influence us enormously. Um, and that wiring will continue as, as we get older, even though of course we're constantly rewiring our brain with neuroplasticity. So, yeah, I think,

Alastair Greenerdo you think it changes, uh, you know, between, you know, the way that, you know Yeah. The hardwiring soft wiring may be similar principles, but do you think there's been a, a change or an evolution of, that is probably the better word, from when you were growing up and you know, 'cause I know you've got some young grandchildren and you see them growing up. What differences. Are there at all between that or actually is it just scientific and that's the way it is and they're just in a different environment but the process is the same?

Lynda ShawNo, we have, even the brain does evolve but it takes a lot of generations to see that evolution. So from when I was growing up to children growing up now that the brain wouldn't have changed that much in that process. We are still incredibly influenced by our peer group. We are still incredibly influenced by our social, environmental upbringing, incredibly influenced by so many things, which is why, of course, we need to consider cultural differences as well. Um, which I know that you consider that in, in, in great detail. So, um, there are, there are a lot of things that will, um, influence how we think and how we behave. But it's quite interesting when you consider that perhaps those things that we, um, or the way we, our brain is wired as teenagers, we may carry on for a very long time in our adulthood. But as I say, life happens, lots of other things happen. We rewire accordingly. But underneath it, from my observations, people are, like the boomers, are idealists at heart, so.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and I think, I think you're right in that, that stays with you. I think it manifests itself differently, and it gets, as you mentioned earlier on, it gets maybe buried a little bit. So the perception, because you're older, you're traditional, where, in fact, you know, it's like we look at our parents and our great grandparents, and we, you couldn't imagine them as teenagers, as youngsters. Clearly, they were different to us, but they were still young people going off courting and, you know, and doing all the stuff that young people do. I want to talk a little bit about that, actually, about the, the habit forming nature of the brain, because you, I've heard you talk about this before. about how we grow up and how we develop these habits, and I know that's particularly important in the work that you do now with unconscious bias and so on, that, you know, all of that frames who we are. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Lynda ShawYeah, sure. Um, in fact, 46 percent of my talks and workshops last year were on conscious bias, which is a lot. So people are still very interested in the topic and quite rightly so. Basically, what happens is the brain Is, um, exposed to a cacophony of stimuli at any one time. And it can't possibly process it, so we have something called attention. And attention is very tiny, it's very minute, it can actually be, uh, faulty. We can be attending to the wrong things at the wrong time, but nevertheless we have attention. So what we need to do, the brain has to be efficient, it has to be effective. So what it will, it will, with whatever information it's trying to absorb, it will try and Get it into unconscious processing as quickly as possible so that it doesn't need attention. Attention is when we are consciously attending to things. Unconscious processing is everything else. It's habits. And it's also something called heuristics. So heuristics are when we label people in a stereotypical way. When we, uh, for instance, uh, let's take a, if a, an animal walked into the room, we haven't really paid attention to it, it's not on our radar, we're not, we're not consciously aware of it. But we sort of are, and it, it's got four legs, it's got whiskers, it's got two ears, oh, so it must be a cat. But if you attend to it, you realize it's a dog. Okay. So that is, that is heuristic. We are, we have, whatever's happening, we try to put it in little compartments, that information into compartments, so that we label it, so we can then not think about it. Put it into, into our unconscious processing and not think about it. And we do that with human beings. Sometimes, of course, though, those stereotypical ideas are incorrect and also unkind and unfair. So, therefore, we have to be extremely aware of them. The trouble is with heuristics, they will also come with unconscious bias. An unconscious bias is when we decide, you know, that person has just come on the tube at the London Underground at midnight and they've got a mask on and they are a young, young person. Um, they look, they look shifty. You decide to change carriages because you could be in trouble. And so you have stereotyped that person as being a problem. But in actual fact, they may be a doctor who's just come off a double shift and they're actually exhausted. They've got a mask on still because they've been working around patients, patients who are very, very poorly. So we, we do that. We, we have to do that. And partly it's driven also by our need to stay safe. Um, so we, but labeling is helpful. But also unhelpful. So we have to be very mindful of that. But yeah, we will, the brain will, um, put things in our unconscious processing as quickly as possible so that it can be efficient and effective.

Alastair GreenerThere's so many things I want to talk about. We're just not going to have enough time. But I'm going to rattle through a few of the things, especially when it comes to generational bias. Because one of the The comments you hear all the time is, well, the trouble with the young is they just don't have any attention span anymore. And I know you feel quite strongly about the response that we should give that comment.

Lynda ShawWell, um, if you look back, I think Aristotle is even, you know, it's written that he was moaning about the younger generations of today. Um, I think it goes on forever because the next generation is going to be different to our own generation. So we will see differences and Maybe criticize when actual fact we should be curious. Um, so, um, there, there is, um, yeah, there are, are issues about that. Do you know, I've completely lost thread. What was the question?

Alastair GreenerI love it. It was about attention

Lynda Shawspan.

Alastair GreenerWere you paying attention? It

Lynda Shawwas about attention. So basically, um, people, you often hear them say, you know, the younger generation don't have the attention span that, um, we had, we had just a short while ago. But um, I actually think that's, that idea is based on very flimsy research. Um, it's not absolute definite and you can see for yourself. If you look at a young person gaming, you will see a very long attention span. So, therefore, I think what we've got now is we have a situation where, uh, we, the social media and everything, we're having to switch between different things. People are interrupting us all the time in the workplace. And, um, so there is a switching thing going on. As a, so what we're doing is we're switching our attention from one thing to another. Rapidly, we don't know we're doing it, and the trade off of that is that we are not as efficient and effective, and it can be extremely costly in industry. But we can, we can certainly decide to spend 20 minutes really concentrating on something or even longer if we decide to and also we're engaged enough.

Alastair GreenerAnd the truth of it is it's happening to all of us because all of us are just having so much more choice than we ever had before. The difference is we look at youngsters and we see ourselves at that age and what we were like. And we've forgotten that times have changed and that the all of these stimuli that you were talking about. didn't exist in their numbers as they do now.

Lynda ShawAnd bearing in mind that computers, phones, anything at all like that, it's the tools of the young. It's a tool for all of us, but of course it's their language. So, um, they, uh, we are all brought up with what we have to use and therefore it's, it's wise that we all try to understand that and accommodate and just accommodate, learn. You know, learn from each other about all, all of the stuff that what was really beneficial when we were younger and what's really beneficial to the youngsters now and actually learn from one another.

Alastair GreenerYou, you deal a lot with unconscious bias. Could we hone in specifically about generational unconscious bias? You know that, you know, you talked about that stereotyping, the labeling and, and as I always say, you know, Patterns are helpful, but pigeonholes aren't, you know, it's, it's, it's understanding where that balance is when you work with organizations and you help them to tackle unconscious bias, because I know the one thing that you touched on before. And I know you say that unconscious bias isn't something that necessarily can be fixed because it's, it's within us. So how do we best deal with it so that we are really benefiting from the wide range of generations in the workplace at the moment? Thank you.

Lynda ShawI think, um, funnily enough, that comes up so often when I give the Unconscious Bias Workshops, is how to communicate with the different generations in the same department. Um, I hear words like, well, which is the best generation? That's a terrible thing to say. There's a best generation. Every generation has its strengths and its weaknesses. If we are talking stereotypically. If we're not, every individual has their strengths and their weaknesses. I hear people say, Oh my goodness, me, the young generation, um, you know, I have a real problem communicating with them because of their sense of entitlement. Well, actually, you just think about what that older person has said. Is that not a sense of entitlement, um, in that they are expecting other people to accommodate them? Um, so, um, the, the way to get over it is actually to get to know the individuals. Um, actually get to know, ask them what, what it, you know, what, what's it like being a teenager now or, you know, or just even if that's too direct and the teenager or the younger person or whatever, different generation, if they're thinking, oh, for goodness sake, get real, um, I don't particularly want to answer those sorts of questions, then, then no, don't ask that way, you could actually just say, hey, do you fancy going for a walk and getting a bite to eat? Or do you fancy having coffee and getting to know each other a bit better? Just something so that you can actually open the channels and understand each other more. And even if you are a more senior person in that department, or indeed if an older family member or whomever, ask the younger ones for help. Just say, you know, I'm really stuck on this, I'm trying to get it, but I don't, can you give me a hand? And then they will feel useful. They will feel significant, which is one of the most important things anybody can feel on this planet. Whether you're two years old or a hundred and two years old, everyone wants to feel valued and valuable and valid. So, therefore, you, if you actually help people feel significant, These other problems you have will start to melt away.

Alastair GreenerYou mentioned earlier on that we stick to our peer group because that's comfortable for us and I'd love to know what's happening neurologically at that point. The fact that we do stick to ourselves because what happens then in organisations is that they become effectively generational silos. which aren't particularly helpful because you don't get that mixing up. How do, how do you deal with that? Well, first of all, what's happening neurologically? And then secondly, how do you deal with it?

Lynda ShawThere is, um, there is a natural fear that we might be rejected. There's a natural fear of, of, of speaking to people where we think we don't belong. Um, so, um, people will hold back because they think that they're not welcome. There is a, a worry about being misunderstood. There's a worry about, you know, it's easier to speak to your own peer group because you're speaking much more similar language than you might be to different generations. And let's face it, our, whatever language you speak is continually evolving. So, the younger ones will have a slightly different words to use than we do. And if we try to use them as older people, we sound pathetic. Um, so, you know, there's, there's all of this going on, all the

Alastair GreenerWe've all been there on that one, haven't we?

Lynda ShawSo, yeah, so basically, um, what's going on in the brain is that fear and that misunderstanding feeling of not being understood. Um, so how to get over it is to communicate, talk to one another, you know, just to, and even if, even if there is somebody who doesn't want to communicate, they want to stay in their silo, in their generational silo, even if they want to do that, then perhaps the person who's the team leader or something could introduce unconscious bias and actually the value that we have. In, in, uh, being curious and wanting to learn from one another and open things up a bit. Help us recognize that everybody comes to the table with different skills and different strengths.

Alastair GreenerBecause sometimes we need help, though, to get out of that comfort zone, the comfort zone of sticking with our own. And that happens across, you know, culturally, it comes across in all sorts of different ways. We stick to our own. So sometimes you do need that person on the outside, almost of stirring the pot a little bit, you know, kicking people out and say, come on, mix with other people, you know, almost a bit like a party planner or something.

Lynda ShawYeah, totally. Just, just to get to encourage them to, um, just think about things slightly differently. And let's face it, everything is perception. Um, our own personal reality is nothing more than perception. It's not right. It's not wrong. It just is. So just, you're, you're seeing, looking at me now, you're hearing me now. And, um, there'll be others who are listening and hearing to me in all sorts of different ways, but they will all hear and see someone different based upon their own experiences so far, based upon their own perceptions so far, and everybody's correct. They're all right. So, um, if we understand that, if we actually really, that's one of the biggest lessons I teach is perception. If we really understand perception, we, we get kind of a bit of slack for people, you know, we, we, we are a little bit more understanding, a little bit more, have a bit more empathy, a bit more compassion, because we can, if we can keep it front of mind that, you know, somebody is going to be seeing things and hearing things differently, they're correct. I'll give you a quick example. Um, my mother in law, when she was not much longer for this earth, decided she wanted to have her three sons over, my husband included, um, to, uh, discuss the will, her will. So I insisted that all three boys were there at the same time. And she said she wanted the wives as well. So we sat there quietly and the boys did their thing. And I heard my mother in law explain to the boys exactly what was in the will and why she did it. They all agreed, they all understood. I kid you not, with less than a week, all three boys heard something differently. And they're brothers. And it was really important. And they, she had, she had their full attention. But still That was their perception based upon their own experiences so far, and they were right. There you go. So, if we understand that, so much more will be better.

Alastair GreenerBut, okay, that's fine, but to take that particular example, you then go away from that meeting, you now have your perceptions, what happened at that meeting, whether it's, whether it's the reading of a will or whether it's, um, in a business meeting, how do you then deal with the, almost like the conflict that's going to result out of that? out of people understanding something differently, because they feel they're absolutely right. Yeah.

Lynda ShawYou, you have, you have to, first of all, giving the lesson about perception is sensible so that everybody's armed with the right information. You've got to be very transparent with this stuff. You can't hold on to information, you've got to give it freely. Um, and equally then you, um, once people understand that they may have heard it slightly differently then you've got memory coming into it. Memory is very faulty. It changes all of the time. And I won't go into that because that's a very long, long, long discussion, but very fascinating. Um, so, and then you just, you qualify. What is it at the, in that, at that moment when you're giving, when you're having this meeting, you qualify it. So, right. What have you heard? What actions are you going to take? What do you think the purpose of me saying that is? You've got to qualify, you've got to constantly make sure that you are really clear and that people have understood and aren't, and, and, and, and Send it back to you in their own words.

Alastair GreenerLovely, I love that. And it's, it's that giving time rather than jumping on something, which is what we all tend to do because we're in a terrible rush and we haven't got time to read it. No, you need to take that time. Talking of time, I'd like to finish off, if I may, just by asking, and it's, it's a ridiculous question when you've got so much knowledge, you know, in, in all the things we've talked about, but if you would have three tips that you would say to us as individuals, whether it be to our family, be to our friends or be it in the workplace where there's a a misunderstanding or a miscommunication between generations. What are some of the tools that you teach your clients to help break down those generational barriers?

Lynda ShawWell, perception is always the very first one, that's the foundation of absolutely everything. But curiosity has got to come a close second. Be curious about people, want to understand them, want to learn about them, and if you think I can't be bothered or don't want to, make yourself. You'll be absolutely astonished at the outcome. So curiosity, learn about them, and do you know what? I think one of the biggest lessons we have, um, is that where is it written that work or life shouldn't be fun? I've not seen it written anywhere. So, um, why don't we just lighten up and have some fun and enjoy one another regardless of their age and regardless of their background. That's my answer.

Alastair GreenerI love that. I love that. I, I love to hear it. And I'm not sure whether it was from you, but somebody was saying how they, there was an MD of a company and a fairly new young Gen Z and they were in the, they got caught in the lift. They'd never spoken to each other. The lift stopped. They were stuck. All of a sudden they just, they had to start talking and they discovered a whole load of things that they had in common. And all of a sudden from that moment, they had not only the shared experience of the lift, but also those other things as well. And there's actually, there's a lot of fun things that actually will connect people of different generations. I'm, I'm, I'm a big skier and it's lovely how you get round the table at the end of day. We've all got that shared, unique experience of the day that we've had skiing together. So yeah, I have fun. I love that. Yeah.

Lynda ShawYeah. Absolutely. Have fun. Always be kind. Never be unkind with it. But yeah. Have fun.

Alastair GreenerBrilliant. I, I, you know what? Absolutely fantastic. I'm going to go away, make some more notes actually of this, uh, read the transcript again because I always learn so much when I, um, ever listen to you. Linda, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the, on the podcast and, uh, really, really appreciate your time today.

Lynda ShawThank you, Alastair. I've just great time. that you've given me this afternoon and I'm very grateful.

Alastair GreenerThank you and thank you very much indeed for joining us. We'll see you soon. Bye for now. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationallyspeaking. co. uk