Shelley Bridgeman: The Art of Listening Across Generations

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello and welcome to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips to bridge that generation gap. Today I'm joined by Shelly Bridgeman. Now Shelly is a speaker, transformational coach and author. Uh, she's been a media commentator specializing in psychotherapy, psychology, and coaching with appearances on BBC tv, sky News, channel four, channel five, as well as. Radio 4's Woman's Hour. She's also been on Midweek, The Jeremy Vine Show, that must have been a high, on Radio 2, and she's also featured in Psychologies and Therapy Today magazines. And we were talking just before we got started about Shelley's comedy career as well, but we'll come to that if we have time later. Shelley, thanks for joining us. Good to be here.

Shelley BridgmanGood to be.

Alastair GreenerNow, we're going to start off, as I do with every one of my guests, talking about your generation and whether you feel that you are stereotypical of your generation. Uh, you are a boomer, and boomers are seen as maybe not being very tech savvy, not being up to date with things and being dragged and kicking into the 21st century. Does that sound like you? And what other things would you say that you do or don't conform to the stereotype of a boomer?

Shelley BridgmanOne of the things I have in common with Generation Z is I hate stereotypes. And I find that a lot when I work with young people. So no, I don't believe I am There are certain traits that I've got where I am that I can't deny. Um, I embrace media. I don't have a problem with, I do have a problem with technology sometimes like everybody else, but I use it. I'm not scared of it. And I've, I think because I still work and I work with young people, um, it's enabled me to just keep rolling really and, and pick up on what's going on. If people want to say things like, I don't want to embrace, uh, AI. I, I hate being online. Well, fine, but get a different job. You'll get a life. I mean, it's there. It's here. How we use it is the question. So, I don't believe I'm typical. I'm, I'm not sitting on a pile of money because I was advantaged and have four houses. And it was easy for me. No, it's no easier for me than it is for people now. It's just different.

Alastair GreenerI think that's a really interesting distinction to make, isn't it? There's, you know, you have people demonize, older people demonizing the young, saying they're entitled and all those things in terms of stereotypes. And you have the young who think, as you suggested there, that if you're a boomer, you're rich, you're wealthy because you were able to do things that they can't do today. And it's And they're just very unhelpful, those kind of things, aren't they? I think, um,

Shelley Bridgmanyou know, I had a humble beginning on the council estate. I was no better off or worse off than the people up the road. So we didn't feel deprived. It was just the way it was. And of course, um, getting on to a different sort of period 10, 20, 30 years later, yes, we were able to buy houses, put our deposits down. Not everybody did. And a lot of boomers are still saddled with debt, as well as being able to get on the housing ladder. I know that's one of the stereotypes often bandied about. I think it's different. I think every generation has got its advantages and it's got its downsides. It's how we work with them. That's the key.

Alastair GreenerBut today, younger generations today, of course, are that much more aware of what everybody else around them is doing, where maybe, you know, for boomers, you weren't as aware of everybody else.

Shelley BridgmanNo, I mean, you got your news from buying a newspaper, and then latterly, uh, seeing it on television. I think it's gone full circle, and the young generation now, Generation Z, Generation Z, have got too much information, they're swamped by it. So the challenge is, where, where do they get it from? Where do they pick it from? How do they know it's accurate? How do they recognize the biases? So it's a very different challenge and that's the same in some ways that you have to make an effort to get the right information. So that bit we have in common.

Alastair GreenerYeah, that, I mean, that is becoming increasingly hard, isn't it? Trying to get unbiased information and taking that effort to go to different news sources to get a different balance of opinion. You work, as you said, with young people, you know, as a therapist, and you obviously are able to connect with younger people. They trust you because they're opening up and talking to you. What do you think you do that maybe other people who struggle to get on with younger generations? What do you think you're doing that's different?

Shelley BridgmanListen, I mean, that's the biggest thing for anybody, really, but it's really important that don't sort of say, oh, you're that generation, so you will want A, you will want B. But it's about, it's about trying to understand, you know, and seeking to understand them only. One of the traits, I think, is, uh, they will call out BS. They would forgive you for getting something wrong, uh, if you admit it. Well, you don't make assumptions. And I think that's one of the things that I like about working with young people. I'm, I'm generalizing of course, cause everybody's different, but I think it's that they, you know, they. They prioritize emotional intelligence, I think. They're not looking for everybody else to tell them what to do. They, on the downside, they can get drawn away. They can go down rabbit holes with threads and so on. But, um, but I think they push me to, to sort of look at, um, traditional norms and structures and say, well, actually, I don't know why you said that, I don't feel that,

Alastair Greenerand that's okay. But the difference is you're, but you're listening to that and you're taking it on board where other people of your generation would maybe become defensive or start arguing or, you know, and then all of a sudden you don't have that open conversation.

Shelley BridgmanI met, I met somebody not long ago who I know to be a year younger than me, and I was staggered by something he said. He said, Oh, I don't do emails, I don't like Uh, technology, well I mean that's, it's more accurate than the post office. If you want to get a message to somebody, send an email eh? You can find out if it's got there, and B, it's more likely to get there. I mean that's just, I felt, I felt quite sad actually because I thought you're, you are excluding yourself.

Alastair GreenerIt's not difficult. I think one of the things that, I, I'm always fascinated by people who, it's almost like they've got to a stage in their life when Right. I'm not going to progress any further because the reality is when they were young, they were clearly absorbing new technologies, new ideas, new, new things that were going on around them. And I'm fascinated at which point does someone who is older suddenly decide that that's it. I'm going to cover the world in aspic and I'm not going to go any further. It's we're going to stop here and now.

Shelley BridgmanI don't think, I think the danger is for everybody, would it, however old you are, is to get stuck in a time warp. People classically do it with clothes, don't they? They wear, they carry on at the age of 40, 50, 60, wearing the type of clothes that they were wearing when they were 19. And, uh, and I think it's, it, whether it's clinging on to the past or not, I've never quite, excuse me, thought it through. But there is a familiarity that we want to keep, I think.

Alastair GreenerAnd I, I How does that work in, in your, when you do your transformational coaching? Because clearly you are getting people to think differently when you're doing that. So where do your communication skills, dealing with people, especially if they're of different generations, that you're, you're having to do something a little bit differently then, aren't you?

Shelley BridgmanI'm having to check, first of all, that I'm understanding what they mean. And not making an assumption. So I'll be frequently saying something like, just so that I make sure I'm clear, do you mean A, B, X? Because otherwise it's very easy to sort of go diving down the wrong rabbit hole and get lost. I mean, we should all do that anyway, really, if you think about it. But I suppose because I'm very conscious of trying to stay connected when I'm talking to an 18 year old, I'm more aware of it, I think, about Giving them that respect. Um, and also I don't want to get it wrong. I may be hearing something that is inside or outside of my experience and trying to assume that I know it. Biggest thing I've found is I don't think anybody minds if you say, I don't know that I really understood that. Can I just check? Did you mean that? Did you mean this? Rather than guessing it. And I find They're very unforgiving about making assumptions. It's not a criticism, it's an observation.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and I would absolutely agree with you. I'd absolutely agree with you. But do you see that clearly it's listening, it's getting that clarity that you talked about, but then what about the actual communication when you're talking to them? How do you change? Because you're working not just with young people, you're also working with people in the corporate world who are looking for their purpose. How does your communication change between the different age groups?

Shelley BridgmanI probably think about it a little less for somebody who's a little older. Um, but then again, I suppose because of the type of work that I do, I like to think that I never assume that I'm fully understanding what somebody says anyway. But I think my antenna's out a bit more when I'm talking to a much younger person. I'll give you an example. Um, We talk about inclusivity's the big thing at the minute, isn't it? It's being abolished, apparently, in some places in the world. I'm looking west,

Alastair Greenerbut We'll gloss over the date we recorded this, but I think everyone will be able to work it out now.

Shelley BridgmanI know that the young, you know, if I'm talking to an 18 or 19 year old, they see identity as much more fluid than my generation ever did. And I don't mean with gender. Yes. Exclusively, but with everything. Self expression, um, they want to, you know, they will, they will be okay with whatever it is somebody's coming up with. They don't really care whether somebody's sexuality is hetero, gay, bi. They're not interested. They don't see color as my generation does. Because they've grown up in a world where their next door neighbor Maybe brown, black, white, red, yellow, it, it becomes something that they, they understand will change all the time, and it doesn't bother them. They don't have conversations about the number of people coming into the country. Isn't it terrible? But some do. What I've noticed as well, and I tend not to speak with them, but I know my generation, for example, the boomers who grew up with c and d and the threat of nuclear war. were very, um, left wing, so if on a campus in America or in Britain, everyone would have been, you know, young communists or socialists because they didn't want to be like their parents, who were very conservative. And it's gone full circle. A lot of people have got quite right wing views now. So one of the biggest mistakes, and I made it once with somebody, although the results weren't catastrophic, was making an assumption about their political leaning. And it was totally not what I expected from what, the way they were talking. Because they don't see it as, they don't see being right as evil as my generation did. Um, and of course my, my parents, who were the pre boomers, had gone through a war, saw this left stuff as a real threat, you know. My mother was appalled when she discovered I'd gone on a C. endema.

Alastair GreenerBut how do you deal with this thing that, on one hand, you're quite right, that it's, it's a lot more fluid. There isn't that same binary, it's this or it's that. But at the same time as we have that, politically, and in many people's minds, we've actually become more binary. We're so entitled to our own opinion, but we are so right because it's been reinforced by the algorithms on social media. So it to me seems this sort of rather strange paradox that you've got a young generation who generally see things very not in little pigeonholes, but we're also a very divided

Shelley Bridgmanworld. Yeah, I think one of the things that people often say to me is they, they'll say, it'd be nice if somebody took some action instead of just talking about it. You know, that's a typical expression I'll get from somebody who's 19, if we start talking about politics or whatever. I've talked to somebody who's quite angry that certain news channels can call themselves news channels when they're news magazines, when it's opinion and it's not news. And that, as we know, is common now. They're not, they don't officially say, you know, it's a flag, I, we're left, we're right, whatever, but they are, you know, it's, it's propaganda, very often, it's not actual news. I think the one thing all of us struggle with is to discern the difference, and I don't think that's exclusive to any age group, there is, it's so easy to put false information out. And what was the expression that became part of the general pundits? Fake news. So use that expression when it suits you. Yeah. Fake news, fake news, that's not really news. And then when you want it, you don't have to.

Alastair GreenerBut it's the level of conviction that people have. And I'll be interested to see your take, whether that's generational or not. But the conviction that people have about an opinion they have because They have been fed things that perpetuate their own views. Do you think that's a generational thing or is, is that something that we're all experiencing? I

Shelley Bridgmanthink the danger is that as we get older, we all have sort of models of the world, don't we? Um, and, um, and, you know, in my day, you know, one of the things I hate before elections is when somebody says, Oh, I've always voted X. It's like, don't you ever think about it? Don't you ever challenge it? You know? Uh, I mean, whether that's a 19 year old, certainly not going to say I've always voted X. I haven't voted yet, probably. But I've always believed this will, and that's one of the things that the advantage the young have got, because they're exploring the world, and they're not fixed. They don't believe that it's always going to be a social, a certain way. What I do like about the people I speak to a lot, uh, of the, the Generation Z, uh, bracket, if you like, is To them, most people I speak to, social justice is sort of non negotiable, you know, it's quite unusual to find a very young person who doesn't think that that's something that should just be a given, shouldn't really be fighting for that, you know, we want, I don't care whether, I don't care about your sexuality, but I do care what you do, I do care about what you're doing. What's the difference you're trying to make?

Alastair GreenerHow does that manifest itself in terms of relationships between parent and child? You know, you're working, obviously you're working with corporate, so you're seeing them, but you're also working with a lot of youngsters as well. So how are you seeing the difference in people's relationships that they have with their children that we maybe had with our parents and so on?

Shelley BridgmanAnd one of the biggest things, of course, is that, um, for me and for you and for a lot of people listening to this, we didn't grow up with technology. Anyone who's born in the last 20 years has grown up with social media and they've grown up with the internet. They've grown up with access to information. It's just there. So I think that's one of the things that, you know, they like shortcuts. They not, they like a B. Or something that tells them what it's about. And the people listening to this saying, What's it mean? You know, but, um, But I think for anyone who's got children as I have, and my children are not Generation Z, they're older. All, all young people challenge us, don't they? You know, the first time my, uh, my eldest daughter said to me, What was it like back in the olden days, you know, a hundred years old? So, so to, we all think that the older generation is a sort of dinosaur type of generation.

Alastair GreenerSo Do you think, do you think Gen Z today have that same level of seeing old people as dinosaurs as we did when we were their age?

Shelley BridgmanWell, they would never admit it. They probably do. Or at least they will probably Want to check because they're going to challenge we do, you know, if you try and take, I think one of the things that I'm digressing slightly, but I think it's relevant. One of the things that we still don't know the long term effects on with a lockdown, because we had follow the science. Nobody ever said follow the psychology. So we knew what to do to keep people physically safe. We can start arguing about vaccinations, whether lockdown was just to protect the NHS, or it was really about people. But the problem is, there's this generation of people that lived on a device. It wouldn't really, would have been criminal to stop them. Because Um, young people who were going to school were suddenly only able to communicate with their friends through this thing that we call a smartphone. And now we wonder why you go to a cafe and people are sitting there talking to each other, but actually they're all looking at a screen. But

Alastair Greenerevery generation is, every generation is doing that, you know, we have this stereotype that it's young people doing it, but older people catch up. In our research that I did with Generationally Speaking in 2024, we looked at people's attitudes. It almost feels like, yes, the, the young, which, by the way, they aren't always the first adopters, you know, Older generations are often first adopters as well, but what the difference was, is they just will be doing the things that we accuse the young of doing today, will probably be doing tomorrow.

Shelley BridgmanYeah. Well, that's true. And none of us know, of course, what will actually happen. I think the other thing that I, uh, you know, when I knew you were going to be asking me some of these questions, I was thinking one of the things that I know they really like is transparency. They, they, they don't like hiding stuff and sort of trying to kid them into something. I'd rather you said, look, we're in a mess, than pretended that we're not. And I think the, the, the young people I know who are political, not all of them are. A lot don't care at all. I think that goes across all generations really. But nothing makes them angrier when they know somebody is hiding something. Makes me angry too. And I'm a, I'm a good person, but I would say that's very prevalent.

Alastair GreenerYoung people seem to be more involved in movements rather than politics. Again, that's where it's not that direct label of I'm that political persuasion, I'm that political persuasion. It's more a

Shelley Bridgmanmovement. It's, you know, it's, yeah, that's the interest. Things like global warming and green issues. They get very engaged and get really angry when they hear somebody say, Well, we're doing what we can, but we've just shifted the date back by 10 years. Or we've just abolished it in some cases. And, and they really cross about that because they say, You know, we're going to inherit this, this ball that's spinning through space from you. How dare you suddenly tell me you care about me. And I'm watching bits of the polar ice cap fall off. And you're now delaying the, the uh, the moratorium, or you're pulling out of the Paris Accord or whatever you're doing. That makes them very cross.

Alastair GreenerWhat do you do about older people? When you have your, your, your clients that you work, because you're working with corporate leaders, and you're helping them change, and, you know, some of them, this might come as a bit of an uncomfortable realisation, that they've actually been doing things wrong, they're stuck in their own ways, and that they need to be you know, they, they need to have a less blinkered view on life. How do you broach that subject when you recognize working with younger people that actually what older people sometimes need to do is to think differently? How do you approach that when it comes to communicating it?

Shelley BridgmanI think it's, it's back to what we started with almost really. It's about seeking to understand and not, you know, the old. The old idea of marketing and selling was that you put, you put a poster up, didn't you, next to the M4 or the M40 or wherever you live. Now you can target who you're trying to speak to. So you don't have to make mass assumptions and treat people like cannon fodder. You know, X is good for you. Well, it probably isn't. So I think it, it, it's really about just saying, well, I'm going to. Admit that I don't know, and I'm not going to patronize them by just assuming that I know what's best. I'm going to do my research. I'm going to find out what they want. When I employ somebody, I have a right to expect what I want from them. Be quiet. Maybe I should say, few things important in your workplace. If you came and worked for us, what would you bring, but what would you want as well? What would help you?

Alastair GreenerI'm, I'm guessing people who work with you, they're, they're open to these suggestions because by virtue of the fact they're coming to you. But if they're resistant to it. Always. Because. So, so how do you deal with that resistance? Find out

Shelley Bridgmanwhat it's about.

Alastair GreenerI

Shelley Bridgmanmean, it's quite simple. In the end, it's like, okay. So, tell me a bit more about that. Didn't you like it? I want to ask you about it. I don't want to talk about that. Okay, well, I won't push you, but you mind telling me what it is that you're,

Alastair Greenernot why. Yeah, it's all about how, how you ask the question. I'm, I want to talk very briefly before we, we, we wrap up with some tips and some final bits of advice. I want to talk about your comedy, because you have done improv, you've done all sorts of comedy. We're moving slightly away from our core topic, but it, but humor is something that, you know, do we consider it being generational or is humor, humor?

Shelley BridgmanGod, that's such a good question. I don't know that I actually have the answer for that. I think it's got to be generational to a point. Um, but then is it more about the subject? It has to be adapted. I would say it's probably more that, um, you know, a gag is a gag, you know, you can laugh at one of the comics I like, Tim Vine, who does the puns, you know, you can be 16 and he can be funny, you can be 86 and he can be funny, but of course, What comics do is they speak to their audience, so if you're talking to, um, a young person then you know that certain things are winding them up, so you'll be in touch with that culture. So I suppose the idea is, again, it's about adapting your material to the audience. But that applies to all generations, I think.

Alastair GreenerAnd I think we can learn a lot from comedy in terms of connecting with each other. Because, because of course with comedy, as you and I both know, if you, if you don't connect with your audience in comedy, it's a very short lived career.

Shelley BridgmanWell, it is,

Alastair Greenerand,

Shelley Bridgmanand one of the things I learned, because I, I, I worked in the USA for a while doing comedy, is that they're very visual. They like visual stuff, so you'll find that the, the comics are quite animated, they're quite loud, you know, they're, they're, they're building a picture. You know, we, we, we're a bit drier, and we do throwaway lines, or, and, and a bit more understated. And that, that's harder for them, but I think that's more about culture than generation, really.

Alastair GreenerAnd that's something that is a whole different topic, isn't it? Because you've got, on one hand, you've got generations, and again, I use this model of the five circles of generational influence. Right. What makes you, you? And the, the first One underneath your generation is well, where are you culturally because if you're from the USA, you had a very, you know, if you look at lockdown, for example, the impact of lockdown for you, if you were in Sweden, which was the most relaxed to say someone like, um, Parts of the U. S. which were incredibly, sorry, not the parts of the U. S., parts like Australia and New Zealand, which were incredibly strict. You had a totally different experience, but that's, I think we're going to have to talk about that one another time. Just to wrap up today, could you maybe just share Given your experience as a psychotherapist and a purpose and legacy coach, give us a couple of your tips of what you think are better ways to bridge that communication gap between generations.

Shelley BridgmanWell, I think, um, I think one of the things is they tend to value inclusivity, mental health, transparency. We, we talked about those. Um, I think the upbringing we have to recognize that. They've grown up in a, in a technological age with information. They get information over them, so don't give them more. You know, don't just chuck stuff at them. Find out, ask a bit more than you would normally what they want, I think would be a, a good tip for me. Because they, um, they don't just want to be told, well, you know, the meaning of X is so and so. They don't find that in five seconds flat. You don't need that. But being seen, I think, you know, they don't, they don't want to be, they don't want to be cancelled, you know, that word. They might want to cancel somebody else, but they don't want to be cancelled. Um, views on identity, they challenge a lot, because they're, like I said, they're more fluid. And, uh, and social justice and so on. I think for me, They're the biggest things.

Alastair GreenerSurely it's been a fantastic conversation. I've thoroughly enjoyed it and I've learned a huge amount as well as I know our audience will have done as well. If people want to get hold of you, if they would like to find out more about your work and what you do, where can they find you?

Shelley BridgmanUm At Shellybridgement. com, Jesus Place, you can email me via that, or um, I'm on Facebook and LinkedIn mainly, so. And

Alastair Greenerwe'll, and we'll put those links at the bottom in the show notes. Yeah, people can connect with me on

Shelley BridgmanLinkedIn, and I'd love to. Have a conversation, yeah.

Alastair GreenerShelley, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. Thank, thank you everybody else as well. Uh, you can find out more at Alastair Greener, uh, Generationally Speaking on our podcasts and you'll find all of that information at generationallyspeaking. co. uk. Thanks for joining us. See you next time. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationallyspeaking. co. uk