Lise Kaye-Bell: Talking to Gen Z: Theatre, Trust and Tough Conversations

Automatically transcribed, so there may be the odd slip.

Alastair GreenerHello, and welcome back to the Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast, where we look at bridging the generation gap by debunking myths, tackling stereotypes, and sharing practical tips on how we can build stronger intergenerational connections. And today I'm joined by the founder of Soundproof. Box the winner of 2024. Small social enterprise of the year, and also just recently social entrepreneur as well. Um, combining her acting background in 25 years in behavior change, she uses immersive theater to tackle issues like misogyny and youth exploitation, impacting over 13,000 young people across the UK and beyond. Welcome, Lisa K. Bell.

Lise Kay-BellThanks, Alice. So you made me sound very impressive, though.

Alastair GreenerI won't tell 'em who wrote it. Um, so listen, it, it's great to talk to you because you, you know, I talk a lot about bridging the generation gap, and that's exactly what you're doing. You're a Gen X and you're going into schools where you're talking to Jen Alpha and to Gen Z, um, 12, 13, of course being the, um, the, um, the, the change over there. Not that it's, it's. An arbitrary time, obviously. But I wanna start off by talking about you, if I may, and being a Gen X. Would you say that you follow the stereotype of being a Gen X?

Lise Kay-BellI don't. Uh. I don't identify as Gen X. I don't think I'm, I'm, I'm in hiding. I'm a Gen X in hiding. Um, I feel like a lot of my friends are using the R word at the moment, so they're talking about retirement and I've just calculated for me retirement, if I go by the government stats, it'd be 20 years off yet. So a lot of my friends that work in public sector said, oh, I can retire in six years time. I've got no aspiration to retire. 'cause I just think, well, what am I gonna do? Um, yeah. So that, that's one thing that I differ from in terms of my, uh, other Gen X counterparts. I.

Alastair GreenerAnd actually it's interesting, isn't it? Because Gen X is a little bit like Gen Z in, you know, gen Z, you know, 13 to 27. They're going through multiple stages of life as Gen Z right now. You know, you could be doing your gcsc, your A Levels University, um, first job or actually well into your job looking for promotion. And Gen X at the other end of the working scale. There they are. So, you know, if you are a young Gen X at, you know, 40 odd, you know, you are in the prime of your, of your working career still, you know, you are still really busy in, uh, in your not 40, but in your late, mid to late forties, you know, you're still there. Whereas obviously older Gen Zs, you know, are 60. This in 2025 with Gen

Lise Kay-BellXs. Yeah. They are 60 million. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alastair GreenerSo what about your upbringing? Would you say you were brought up in a typical, um, gen X Way?

Lise Kay-BellYes. Um, oh, actually, I don't know. No, both parents worked, uh, they both mucked in and did household chores. They both contributed to the household, although my dad was a main money earner. So, um, and in terms of things like manners, the types of things that we watch on television, um, I don't know. I mean, I was pretty much, I would. My mum will kill me for this latchkey kid because I just, you know, came home from school. It wasn't Mollycoddle came home from school. Mum and dad were working. Certainly mum was still at work for a couple of hours before I, you know, after I got back from school, I. Um, and,

Alastair Greenerand that, and that is by the way, that that absolutely is the, a, a very strong and pretty accurate profile for most Gen X Gen Xs who were born during that era. Um, they, they were, you know, fending for themselves, which is one of the reasons why. You know, they have so much resilience why they have, you know, a, a lot of self-drive because they were kind of like forced into it in, in many respects because they were the first generation where both parents working was a norm.

Lise Kay-BellOkay. So I am typical and I was brought a phenotypical, uh, uh, typical way. That's great. I think I'm just desperately trying to be a, a millennial, aren't I? That's what it is.

Alastair GreenerYeah. Okay. Keep, keep, keep, keep working on that. Um, in, in fact, I have a bit of a theory about millennials. You know, that Gen X and Gen and, and baby boomers are at the upper end of the age group at the moment, and they're brought up in a certain way, and I reckon kids born round about, and it's, again, it's, it's not that definitive, but round about 1980, I think that's when we went from a more adult centric society to a more child. Centric society where the, the whole focus on children was completely redefined in that era. And that was really when baby boomers had children and they wanted to give their children what they didn't necessarily have, which was that level of attention. And then that continued with Gen X when they started having children. And I'm sure with you and, and, um, you, because you've got a daughter, haven't you? Yeah,

Lise Kay-Bellshe's upstairs actually. So do you better keep outta the way? 'cause I'm gonna be talking about you. Um, I feel like I, you know, gen X actually, because, um, she's very self-sufficient. She just, she said, oh, I cook for heaters for me and my friend the other day, she's 15, she's year 10 at school, but she's quite good at cooking and she does things for herself. You know, she hops on the train up to see me, um, on her own. And I know a lot of parents, my friends who are parents with children the same age, they wouldn't let them do that sort of thing. So she gets a lot of freedom.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and it's interesting, there are certain traits that people would suggest that Gen X's kids, IE Gen Z actually reflect a lot of the attitudes of their parents. So many of them are quite self-sufficient, although, you know, there is still that accusation of over parenting and oversharing with them. But, um, that's another interesting debate for another day. Um, but it's interesting to see where you. Stand with all of this because how much of your generation do you bring into your work when you are going into schools and you've got your soundproof box program, how much of you comes out in that and how much do you explore generational differences? Yeah. Um,

Lise Kay-Bellwe don't. Explicitly explore generational differences because what I'm trying to do is create an inclusive environment. So I don't want to have an us and them because the reason we get brought into school as an organization, I get brought into school to talk is that I'm not the teacher, and if I become the teacher, then they're not going to listen. So I'm very conscious of the language that I use. I use language that. It is widely used across TikTok. Um, you know, and I am very conscious of asking their opinion and their view rather than telling them, which is, you know, a more inclusive approach to working with young people. You know, you are only gonna get the best out of young people if you ask their opinion. You ask their view. They've grown up in society where I, I remember. School. My daughter at primary school, they had a committee to choose what their new school uniform was going to be like. You know, we were just told.

Alastair GreenerAnd actually what you've exhibited there is, well, I was probably gonna ask at the very end, and I might ask you to repeat it at the very end, but you know about engaging younger generations because one of the things that we often hear from people, particularly when we look at Gen Z coming into the workplace is that Gen X and boomers struggle, and even some millennials are struggling to connect with. They're Gen Z coworkers coming in because they don't know the language. They don't know how to relate to them. And I guess that's what you are doing in, in, in schools, isn't it? Yeah. I

Lise Kay-Bellmean, I've got a live test study upstairs. You know, I ask her opinion about, should I put this in? Should you know, we talk about Snapchat a lot in our, one of our theater shows. Um, so I don't know enough about Snapchat, so I asked my 15-year-old who does. Um, so I'm very conscious of that. Um, I'm very conscious of not being the old lady with a PowerPoint, which is what my daughter, the, the reason we set up the, the, uh, in interactive theater experience in the first place was I was going to go and talk in schools. I'm a speaker, you know, I'm a speaker. Uh. And my daughter's words to me were, no one wants to see an old lady with a PowerPoint. So I took her advice, um, and developed something that was engaging, immersive and young people would connect with.

Alastair GreenerAnd that's really, really powerful and I think that's a great lesson for all of us in terms of how do we connect Because, um, I know that when we look at professional speakers and we look at people in the communication industry, they are having to review the way that they deliver their content to younger people. And you know, we've already seen the length of keynotes, talks at conferences, reduce in time. We've noticed that there's a, a, a leaning towards greater interactivity, uh, with the people who are participating. What are the other things that you are seeing as engagement tools, especially with younger people, but we're all catching on use of

Lise Kay-Belltechnology. You know, I've got, I actually had a phone call a couple of weeks ago with Vicon, who, the guys who do ABA voyage. Um, because I had an idea about immersive theater experiences using avatar technology, which is the same as the the voyage, um, experience. Um, I'm not using that yet 'cause I think it, it's a starting point was about 3 million to even get it off the road. Off the block, but, um,

Alastair Greeneryou haven't quite got the budget for that.

Lise Kay-BellDefinitely things like, um, technology, giving them surveys and things to, to complete, particularly in public shows. In schools it's more difficult because they're not allowed to have their phones. Um, interactivity. I get the kids up on stage when I, if I'm doing a talk and I'm not doing the theater show, I get them up on stage, I get them doing the acting. I, um, one of the workshops that we run is about misogyny and Miss Andrew. Uh, I had the kids doing raps, uh, rap music to positive lyrics because some of the rap music that we're hearing is not necessarily positive. Um, so just lots of different techniques that would engage young people at their level in a way that they want to be engaged with. I think school at the moment hasn't changed a great deal from when I was there. It's very formulaic, very linear, um, and there's not enough that young people can relate to.

Alastair GreenerYeah, it, and, and it's that ability to relate, which is so important, isn't it, if you want to get your message across, if you want to get through to younger people. Um, that's certainly what we are hearing about all the time. What would you say, um, about the whole thing of phone usage and, you know, young people? I mean, how do you control phone usage with your 15-year-old? Or do you

Lise Kay-BellUm, I work on two, so we have. Um, things like snap maps closed down so that she doesn't, you know, have it open publicly so's some safety precautions in there, but I don't like the word control. I don't like it as an individual. Um, be because of my experience in relationships and things. So I work on a trust basis. Um, I have some security measures in place in terms of, you know, parent checks and things. I expect her to come to me and tell me, well, we'll have those conversations around technology, about things, so keep the dialogue open rather than it being a punitive approach. I'm a very modern parent. Yeah. And, and

Alastair Greenerwhat you are entering here is, is a whole realm of, you know, best practice when it comes to parenting. And, you know, a lot of parents are completely bemused by the level of technology that youngsters are using because it wasn't. It's not familiar to them because they weren't doing it when they were their age. But what about parental responsibility in terms of what kids see is what they tend to do. And you know, you see a lot of talk about parents being on their phones all the time and therefore that's why the kids are on the phones all the time.

Lise Kay-BellUm. Yeah, there was a little bit of that, particularly at a younger, uh, level, and I, I'm very guilty of being on my phone a lot, uh, and my daughter is mirroring that. There's an argument that actually is it, is it the times we live in? Or you know, 'cause everything's on your phone. In the old days, you know, with the old Nokia 63 10 or whatever we used to have, all you could do is play snake, put a text on and, and phone up. But now you've got apps, you've got games, you can pay your bills online. We are driven towards using our telephones. Um, I do make sure, and we're actually going on holiday tomorrow and we are having a bit of a no phone. Few days where we just swim and we just enjoy, we go to the theater. So I try and do things with her that are off the phone, but this copying, I, I'm my own worst enemy 'cause I'm a nightmare. I'm constantly on there.

Alastair GreenerAnd you know, you, you are working in schools, you are seeing a lot of different behavior in schools and you're also seeing a lot of different levels of parental engagement with kids. Where, where do you stand on that in terms of helping those families where maybe the level of engagement that you have with your daughter might not be the same in other families for a multitude of reasons.

Lise Kay-BellJust think it's, it's about education and getting them. Get them doing a little bit more, making sure that things are more accessible and free. You know, a lot of parents are, are time poor and they're money put financially poor as well at the moment. So it's how do we make things quick and easy and make it so that you know they can afford it. I live, I'm fortunate where I live, I live at the back of some lake. My daughter, actually, one of the things that I did do with my daughter at a very young age when she got smartphone, is I introduced her to photography. So she does use her phone, but she takes photographs on her phone, edits them, does all the, so, so I actually merged going out in nature and using technology. So this is some things that you can do that don't cost anything.

Alastair GreenerYeah, it it, it's funny, isn't it? Some things will remain a constant. I, I remember seeing in my village last year, there were some kids playing around making sort of homemade go-karts on the village green, which was wonderful and old fashioned. And I suddenly realized, no, we were in 2024 because there was another kid filming them all doing it, you know, on a smartphone. But we have to

Lise Kay-Belllive side by side with technology and I think that's the key to parents parenting well, and, and, and, you know, engaging with their children. Don't. Punitive about it. If we take a mobile phone off a young, particularly a teenager, take a mobile phone off a teenager, well, you've lost them. So try merging it in with other activities.

Alastair GreenerYeah, and it, and it's a little bit like the wild West out there and it's always, I always find it quite interesting how technology and then the safeguards of technology are somewhat distant. You know, one leads the other somewhat. And you know, there's, I read a report recently about how. Gen Z, older Gen Z having children now are already thinking of the safeguards and what they can do to protect their children because they're aware of it themselves, whereas their parents, um, and the and older parents weren't familiar with it. Because it was all too new for them as well. So you are, let's come to soundproof box. In your, your work in schools, what, what's this objective? You know, you, you were talking about inclusion and you know, trying to break down those barriers. What's the kind of core message about what you are doing?

Lise Kay-BellSo, healthy relationship education. So whether that healthy relationship is around romantic relationships, whether it's around bullying and harassment, whether it's around that misogynistic language or miss. Language or whether it's around drug trafficking. We are engaging young people on, these are the dangers, these are the things that can happen. This is how it slowly builds up over time, but we do it through the medium of theater. So I hang out with a load of actors and we go round. Schools and colleges, and we put on productions. Our main show is about unhealthy relationships, but we do tackle other subjects as well, depending on what the school, uh, is looking for. It is scripted. Um, there is room for improvisation, but it's very interactive. All the audience have props. I. Facilitate, although I am training up some new facilitators facilitate the session, so it's almost like Jeremy Kyle or um, Jerry Springer, but tackling really serious issues in a delicate and sensitive way. So it's highly engaging. The audience get really. Really passionate about what they're seeing the actors do. And then we spend some time hot seating, so the car, they can get inside the character's heads and interview them. The audience are very much without an audience. The show doesn't work really. I.

Alastair GreenerAnd when you, when you perform to these audiences, what sort of ages do you have and are you adapting your message According to the age group who are in the room?

Lise Kay-BellSo predominantly either, uh, year seven to. 11. But then we work with colleges as well, so I think that's 12 and 13. Um, but we've just adapted the coercive control show for primary schools and it's had great success. I don't facilitate that. I don't think I'm the best person to facilitate primary schools. I like the teenagers. 'cause I, I really bounce off the, the dynamic with the teenager. So I have someone else who does that. Who, who plays? Jeremy Kyle slash Jerry Springer. Um, yeah. So. They're the age groups, but we also work with adults as well. So we run a public show, which I am gonna invite you to on the, we've got one coming up very, very soon. So I will invite you to that. Um, you don't have to join. Please do live. You can come as a hybrid audience member so you can log in on Zoom and watch it and participate with your virtual red flag.

Alastair GreenerNo, that, that's brilliant. And it's, and it just shows the way that we need to make things immersive now that we need to go online as well as, um, being in the, in the room, in person. What are the trends that you are seeing when it comes to generational differences? You know, you've got. Um, you know, COVID, clearly, wherever you were in your learning cycle, that left an quite an indelible print on your life. So we've got the, you know, you're dealing with actually two generations in your work because the younger el members of your audiences will be Jen Alpha, who you know, some of whom would've been toddlers when COVID happened. And then you've got the older students who would've been in primary school. When COVID happened, um, but whether it's COVID or anything else, what are the trends that you are seeing, the differences between the older students you work with and the younger students that you are working with? So

Lise Kay-BellI think, um, resilience levels, they re I don't find them as a resilient generation, generation Z. Um, people are blaming COVID, but I think we can blame COVID as much as we want. COVID has just made it more accessible and easier to talk about our mental health because that came out into the fore during COVID, but there were things beforehand and my daughter turned sort of a teenager during, um, oh, just pre-teen before COVID, but. The parenting that we had prior to that. You know, my niece's 25, we didn't have car seats really when she was 25. We, we hadn't got car seats with all these security things. You know, I used to put my baby in a cot with a, what was called a grow bag. So we had like a zip thing on the front, so they were all snuggled in. We didn't have that. You just put a blanket over a child and let them go to sleep. So there were things that happened before COVID that have created this almost. Kind of MoCo in society. So what we're seeing are young people that don't have so much resilience now and they're really struggling with it. COVID has just added to the mix there. So resilience is one thing, or lack of. Um, there's a lot more expectation. So they're, they're, they're a little bit more demanding in terms of, uh, particularly the older Gen Zs that we've seen in the workplace. They are demanding about time off. They don't like working over time because it's an infringement on their wellbeing and health. So they're not working themselves into ground. Like us. Gen Xs were, you know, we had to do loads of overtime and get in there and look keen, um. Education's kind of taken a little bit and I, and I don't know if that the stats here, so there are a lot more people doing vocational education because of pri, particularly in the sort of lower middle class, um, parts of society because they are. Um, there are more things like vocational qualifications that the equivalent of, so, you know, companies are offering level five apprenticeships, level seven apprenticeships, so there's not a need to go to uni as much now. So seeing a little bit of that coming out with the, the younger generation. So education, uh, resilience, food, food's an interesting one. And I am only judging on my daughter and her friends. We have a more, when I was a kid it was like meat and two vegetables and stuff. They're a little bit more extravagant. My daughters just come home and brought squid and bits from Marks and Spencers with sort of,

Alastair Greenerwhat do you mean? Are you suggesting you didn't have quinoa when you were growing up?

Lise Kay-BellI just think there's just this thing about food. Literally, she's brought this stuff from pot,

Alastair Greenernever even heard of it, had we,

Lise Kay-Belland she's got some blush tomatoes with prawns in this falafel. I'm like, I didn't know what a falafel was. So it was about 35. It's

Alastair Greenera rough, it's, you know, it's remarkable, isn't it? The how, you know, but, but do you find though, that that generation are incredibly well educated in certain areas, but then in other areas you think? How did you not know that? But because of their, where they're getting their news from, where they're getting their information from, it, it, it, it's quite a narrow bandwidth compared with older generations. You know, for example, I remember. We only had one TV in the house and you had to watch what your parents wanted. They were the adults. So you learned a lot of breadth of your knowledge through osmosis, which the youngsters for no fault of their own, they don't get that today. It's

Lise Kay-Bellnot always credible either and, and validated. So often it can be, um, you know, somebody who's got, and, and I'm guilty of doing this from me. An adult Gen X influencer perspective where I'll write a blog based on my own opinion, or I'll do a video based on my own opinion. And you'll know this from sort of professional speaking world where we'll go, right. Well, we've got our own opinion on this, so I'm gonna put out a video. Well. Our younger generations have got access to that information. They're taking that as actually, that is credible and that's valuable. Valuable 'cause I've seen it on the internet or I've seen it on an app. Uh, whereas in the old days, you know, it would be tested. The BBC would send out information via the news. We'd get, you know, the guardian, alright. They would, would've a political bias attached to them. But a lot of the stuff, content out, we, we live in content rich times. Unfortunately, that content's not always great.

Alastair GreenerAnd, and actually talking about content not always being great. There's also, dare I mention, the fake content, you know, the, the many, much of the content created by ai, which might not be accurate. And in, in your household. You know, there you are, gen X, you've got a Gen Z daughter. Um, how do you both use ai? Do you, don't you? Oh. Or how do you It's

Lise Kay-Bellmy, it's my v, virtual assistant is ai. I use it now. If I wanna put a post, it means I can do daily posts for my organization and I can get it out really quickly. I can just put it through chat, GPT. So I have to think about what I'm putting. Just give some pointers. There it goes. It does a point, a post. Uh, surprisingly, my daughter's not really using ai, uh, and the reason being, they're not allowed to at school. So she's still at school and they've been told if they put any of their assignments or work through it, that'll be an immediate disqualification. So I dunno how great technology is yet. And I, I kind of tested that and said, is the technology out there to be able to detect whether or not that. 90% of your work has been put through ai. I'm not, I'm not confident that it is yet.

Alastair GreenerWell, I, I, I was, as soon as you said that, I was thinking, well, how would they know? And I, I am aware though that, um, apparently the recruitment industry is using AI to detect cvs created by ai.

Lise Kay-BellOh, okay. Uh, well, I'm not a fan on AI in, uh, recruitment and sifting, so just as a little tester, I'm not looking for work. I did put my C through V through and, and applied for a role that I knew was gonna be tested through ai, and it came back with a 0% ma match for a career that I've been doing for 25 years, Brian. So it's like,

Alastair Greeneryeah, I, I think it'd be fair to say that AI has, it's got a bit of way to go, hasn't it? Yeah. It's, it, it, it's, it's not there yet. Yeah. What about the, you know, having a 15-year-old daughter and I, and I find that dynamic really interesting and you talk about it a lot, don't you? Um, in, in your work, in, in, in what you do, what are the areas that you really celebrate together and what are the areas that you struggle with?

Lise Kay-BellWe both like the theater and we absolutely, you know, we will eat the theater and we usually quite, we like the same comedy. I, I don't know if she's got a very Gen X sense of humor, but we tend to like the same sort of comedy things like Motherland and anything that's got family stuff in there that you can, you, you can relate to. Uh, where do we differ? I think she's more inclusive than I am. And that's not to say that I'm not inclusive, but there may be things that I say that she'll say, oh mum, we can't say that anymore. I do that with my, with my parents and my grand, my granddad, who's 99, he's, you know, silent generation. He's still alive, and he will say things are like, woo, you can't say that. So we're almost sort of testing each other generation by generation on our, uh, d and i, uh, capability. So I think there might be certain things. Yeah.

Alastair GreenerI mean, language is always such a, a, a, a critical issue, but it's also one that's evolving all the time, isn't it? And you know, we had language we didn't want our parents to know, and kids do it today. And, and I guess kids do it today in, in the world of emojis.

Lise Kay-BellYeah, emojis. But I also think their language patterns are shorter. So they'll say things like unmatched, which means that's great, you know, nothing's better unmatched. I dunno what that means. Uh, well, I'm trying to think some of the other words that they use. Um, I had a long list of them and I've forgotten now, but there's so as, and when they come up, I go Gen Z word.

Alastair GreenerYeah, well, I, I heard a wonderful one the other day, which was a Gen Z was talking to her millennial parent and was saying that they were going to move house. And the millennial, the Gen Z child said, oh no, we're not gonna move. You're gonna decorate it. You're gonna paint it all millennium gray, aren't you?

Lise Kay-BellThat's okay. My house has got gray in it. White and gray. The other word, uh, what did she say? I'm a pick me. And actually everyone who does public speaking is a pick me. So that means they're like, pick me. Pick me. I wanna be, I wanna be at the, uh, the front of everything. Yeah. She'll say, oh mom, you're such a pick me.

Alastair GreenerListen, it is been absolutely fascinating talking to you and I, and I love the work that you're doing in schools. Anything that helps our youngsters feel more prepared for the world that's, um, that's around the corner for them has got to be great. And the fact that you are, you know, creating this wonderful, inclusive environment. Um, maybe if you could just finish off by giving some tips. To parents, um, gen X parents, but Gen X generally on how to engage youngsters more. And then maybe some advice on Gen Z, um, how they can, you know, connect better with older generations. What would you say? I'd play

Lise Kay-Bellwith the Gen X parents, so find things that you can do together where there is a connection. You know, my daughter loves nineties, uh, r and b, so do I. Great. My era. So we, we connect on that. Things where you can use technology and the outside space together. So I talked about my daughter doing the photography. Um, ask questions, don't just tell them because it's then they haven't been brought up at school in that space of being told what to do. They, they're asked their opinion, so ask their opinion. Um, the other way around, gen Zs look. We've lived, we know, we know a lot of things ask us as well. You know, how did you do that? What about this? Get that dialogue going with your parent if you are Gen Z. Uh, yeah, that, that's really it. It's about communicating on that level and getting the dialogue going on both sides.

Alastair GreenerYeah, I, and, and it is all about communication, hence, uh, the work that I do, you know, it, it is all about the way that we communicate. Liz, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much. I wish you every success with Soundproof Box. If people would like to find out more about your work, where can they find you?

Lise Kay-BellUh, soundproof box.org. Everything's on there. Links to our socials, blogs, what we do, uh, video clips and an animation as well. We've got animation.

Alastair GreenerAnd congratulations for being Social Entrepreneur of the year as well. Um, great to talk to you. Thank you so much indeed for joining us, and thank you for joining us as well for this episode of Generationally Speaking. Uh, we'll be back again in two weeks and new podcast every two weeks. Uh, thank you very much and bye for now. The Alastair Greener Generationally Speaking podcast was presented by me, Alastair Greener. It was recorded at Granary Studios and produced by James Jones. Please follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit generationally speaking.co.uk.